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[ArsTechnica] "OtherOS" class-action lawsuit: GeoHot, Sony now share same charge - Page 6

post #51 of 172
Ummm... wat? You just posted what I posted...


Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post
Here is the US one.

Many of confused users should actually read this:
http://legaldoc.dl.playstation.net/p..._tosua_en.html
Revocably means capable of being revoked.
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post #52 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post
Ummm... wat? You just posted what I posted...


Revocably means capable of being revoked.
I was helping you out, the first one sends it to an English written ToS to Asia, specifically Hong Kong, Taiwan and Malaysia. (Click your new link, and old link, and look at the dates and first couple of paragraphs.)

Yep, thats the definition of Revoc...

Edit: And you were editing the one you wrote while I was writing mine.
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post #53 of 172
^^^
However, Sony leaves themselves entirely open in their EULA:

Quote:
3. SERVICES AND UPDATES

From time to time, SCE may provide updates, upgrades or services to your PS3™ system to ensure it is functioning properly in accordance with SCE guidelines or provide you with new offerings. Some services may be provided automatically without notice when you are online, and others may be available to you through SCE's online network or authorized channels.
I think the "automatically without notice" will sink Sony, since they are trying to legitimize their bait and switch tactics. They go on to reserve their right to do this to combat piracy and unauthorised content. Which will end up sinking them because: the mod was done for a hobby, not for profit driven motives; the mod in question did not directly contribute to piracy and was not in and of itself an act of piracy; that even if there is unauthorised content, it is illegal to snoop around someones machine without a warrant issued by the courts, and is illegal to erase content unilaterally without the users consent or a court order. Of course, the admission that Sony makes in their EULA that this may be done automatically, without informing the end user, can constitute bait and switch, and that the user is not given a real alternative.

Quote:
4. COLLECTION OF INFORMATION/ AUTHENTICATION

SCE may retrieve information about your hardware and software for authentication, copy protection, account blocking, system monitoring/diagnostics, rules enforcement, game management, marketing purposes, tracking user behavior and other purposes.
This may be entirely illegal in most non-dictatorship administered nations. Just because they put this in an EULA doesn't constitute legality. MS attempted a similar scheme called Ali Baba, but it was never implemented because even MS's own lawyers recognized the fast road to anti-trust. The only remnant left from Ali Baba is the Registry - which has never been used for the intended reason it was created.

All I can say is that it is an EULA - and probably won't hold much water in court, especially in the light that the EULA is defective in the first place, and that Sony has taken it upon themselves to enforce the terms without reference to law enforcement or the courts. You can't just go around and arrest people, and confiscate their goods, without cause and without the rule of law.
post #54 of 172
Ohhhh ok I see. Thanks for that; for a second there I thought you were Viridian (the one I was responding to) I think the older TOS is more important to look at, because I just know they're going to say "Oh, but Sony changed that, see? Updated February 2011."


Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanPitts View Post
^^^
However, Sony leaves themselves entirely open in their EULA:



I think the "automatically without notice" will sink Sony, since they are trying to legitimize their bait and switch tactics. They go on to reserve their right to do this to combat piracy and unauthorised content. Which will end up sinking them because: the mod was done for a hobby, not for profit driven motives; the mod in question did not directly contribute to piracy and was not in and of itself an act of piracy; that even if there is unauthorised content, it is illegal to snoop around someones machine without a warrant issued by the courts, and is illegal to erase content unilaterally without the users consent or a court order. Of course, the admission that Sony makes in their EULA that this may be done automatically, without informing the end user, can constitute bait and switch, and that the user is not given a real alternative.



This may be entirely illegal in most non-dictatorship administered nations. Just because they put this in an EULA doesn't constitute legality. MS attempted a similar scheme called Ali Baba, but it was never implemented because even MS's own lawyers recognized the fast road to anti-trust. The only remnant left from Ali Baba is the Registry - which has never been used for the intended reason it was created.

All I can say is that it is an EULA - and probably won't hold much water in court, especially in the light that the EULA is defective in the first place, and that Sony has taken it upon themselves to enforce the terms without reference to law enforcement or the courts. You can't just go around and arrest people, and confiscate their goods, without cause and without the rule of law.
Some services may be PROVIDED to you automatically; not removed. The OtherOS removal update surely was not provided automatically; I recall the very day that it aired. Sony announced its details 3 days before the update and made it completely optional to download. The user DID consent by downloading the update, which in turn means they agreed to any new changes in the terms of service.

The intent of using the OtherOS feature is completely out of the equation. The entire claim is that Geo bypassed the system's security, which is both against Sony's EULA and closed source software protection laws. End of story. It doesn't MATTER if he's pirating or not; that's not the current issue at hand. Sure, Sony is trying to prevent piracy, but that is not at all their strong point in court that they're trying to use as they don't need that to bring Geo down. "Geo, did you or did you not bypass the PS3's security encryption to regain a feature that we legitimately removed within our terms of service?" "Yes, I did." "Ok, so you have violated both our EULA and software protection laws."

Obviously if Sony was granted authorization to confiscate Geo's computer, the courts approved of their EULA. Their EULA is totally within their rights to protect their intellectual property. EULA IS overruled by law, but when a EULA is WITHIN the law there is no overrule to be done.
Edited by Stealth Pyros - 2/22/11 at 6:49am
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post #55 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanPitts View Post
^^^
However, Sony leaves themselves entirely open in their EULA:

I think the "automatically without notice" will sink Sony, since they are trying to legitimize their bait and switch tactics. They go on to reserve their right to do this to combat piracy and unauthorised content. Which will end up sinking them because: the mod was done for a hobby, not for profit driven motives; the mod in question did not directly contribute to piracy and was not in and of itself an act of piracy; that even if there is unauthorised content, it is illegal to snoop around someones machine without a warrant issued by the courts, and is illegal to erase content unilaterally without the users consent or a court order. Of course, the admission that Sony makes in their EULA that this may be done automatically, without informing the end user, can constitute bait and switch, and that the user is not given a real alternative.
I have read your posts from all over, you are just here for an argument, and you better bring facts when responding to anything I write or I will eat your argument alive.

From Wiki:
Quote:
Bait-and-switch is a form of fraud, most commonly used in retail sales but also applicable to other contexts. First, customers are "baited" by advertising for a product or service at a low price; second, the customers discover that the advertised good is not available and are "switched" to a costlier product.
No way, in any shape or form is this a "Bait-and-Switch."

It isn't illegal as you give them permission to do so because the first thing you are doing is given permission for them via the ToS/EULA when you first turn on the machine. If you decline permission, you can't use the device. Simple.

Warrants are not the only way law enforcement can stop you, detain you, search premises or what not, its called Reasonable Suspicion. In a legal sense/precedence there are various ways to do things without a warrant and if we needed a judge to obtain a warrant for every illicit crime in the United States alone, nobody would get arrested. Either way your whole argument is invalid:

Quote:
is illegal to erase content unilaterally without the users consent or a court order.
They have user consent, you gave it to them, when you accepted ToS. Or did you like thousands just skip passed it over and over, update after update? I know I did, because nothing ever requires me to read it, but I sure as hell will look something up if I think I just got boned such as OtherOS removal, and seeing it there in black and white, I learned the hard way. The only difference is, I accepted it. Doesn't change anything even if I had known before hand, I will still feel screwed, but thats life. I understand why it was removed, and I choose to upgrade to play games. We all knew what upgrading meant, and if you didn't know, then you just got on to play and installed the update like all others without a moment of hesitation. I can run Linux on a toaster, I can not play the latest games from Sony without an update. All I lost was the cool factor of running it on my PS3.

Quote:
This may be entirely illegal in most non-dictatorship administered nations. Just because they put this in an EULA doesn't constitute legality. MS attempted a similar scheme called Ali Baba, but it was never implemented because even MS's own lawyers recognized the fast road to anti-trust. The only remnant left from Ali Baba is the Registry - which has never been used for the intended reason it was created.
Again, this is standard ToS. I don't know where your crazy theories comparing this to anti-trust issues Microsoft has to do with Sony exercising its rights. A company has rights people. Just like you and me. Just because they are a business doesn't mean they don't get to protect themselves JUST as much as we protect ourselves. We might not agree with their RIGHTS, just like I don't agree that some people shouldn't procreate, but that would be my opinion, not law.

Quote:
All I can say is that it is an EULA - and probably won't hold much water in court, especially in the light that the EULA is defective in the first place, and that Sony has taken it upon themselves to enforce the terms without reference to law enforcement or the courts. You can't just go around and arrest people, and confiscate their goods, without cause and without the rule of law.
Apart of me is torn on this, I see it sticking, I see Sony winning their law suit for sure, even though this particular issue hurts me. I used OtherOS, although, it sure as hell is not a big deal to run Linux on my gaming console. It was kind of cool and educational. I remember seeing a statistic of how many people used OtherOS, and if I find it I will post it. There was close to I think 1% of home consumers had used the feature.

Not only will Sony be covered by EULA / ToS, there is also the fact that Geohot announced his L2 security exploit via OtherOS feature. He was able to circumvent Sony's security all together by bypassing software, and executing code directly off the processor. If they have any proof of this, this will add to charges on Geohot in addition for his most recent security exploit. They made a decision to protect the majority of consumers -AND THEIR BOTTOM LINE- from any type of unsigned code being ran, and it required to disgruntle a very small minority of home users.

Military branches and schools who bulk order the PS3 don't even need OtherOS, they are sold either blank or Linux preloaded with specific kernels. They don't even put XMB OS on it.
Edited by RagingCain - 2/22/11 at 7:17am
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post #56 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post
I remember seeing a statistic of how many people used OtherOS, and if I find it I will post it. There was close to I think 1% of home consumers had used the feature.
I literally lol'd at that part, I'd love to see that.
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post #57 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faint View Post
This is ridiculous.

Don't you guys remember when Microsoft shut down the LIVE servers for all of the original Xbox games? I don't know about you but I bought my 360 so I could play my favorite game - Halo 2. But on April 15th, 2010, was the last day I could. (By the way, they let everyone know like a couple months before hand.)

So now, am I going to sue Microsoft for something which was well within their rights to do? No, we accept it and move on. We obviously don't like it, but it is ultimately not up to us to decide.
I don't see how this has any relevance. You bought a 360, which is paired with Xbox LIVE for 360 games. In what way was there an agreement that it would be compatible with the LIVE service for the last generation console?

Returning to the OP, other than the software being closed source, what is there in the EULA that prevents users from recovering said lost functionality.

Either way, I still find Sony's claim for removing the feature quite bogus. While claiming that the OtherOS feature was removed because it was a potential security risk, it did not recognize at all that people that were using the feature were using it for its intended purpose, and not trying to gain access to security layers.
post #58 of 172
Interested to see how this turns out. There's a lot of ways that this (and the whole PS3/Hacker debacle) can go.
post #59 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ikrin View Post
I don't see how this has any relevance. You bought a 360, which is paired with Xbox LIVE for 360 games. In what way was there an agreement that it would be compatible with the LIVE service for the last generation console?

Returning to the OP, other than the software being closed source, what is there in the EULA that prevents users from recovering said lost functionality.

Either way, I still find Sony's claim for removing the feature quite bogus. While claiming that the OtherOS feature was removed because it was a potential security risk, it did not recognize at all that people that were using the feature were using it for its intended purpose, and not trying to gain access to security layers.
I agree with you, I wish that they had patched OtherOS, but it doesn't change the fact that its their right to remove it. I THINK (as in MY OPINION) it would have been less "douche-baggery" had they just patched whatever it was that Geohot claimed he could do.

All in all whether you believe Geohot was full of it at the time, he certainly was more than able to hack the system regardless, which kind of strengthens the story that maybe he did find the original security flaw that he claimed and Sony possibly realized there was nothing they could do about it.

If the flaw piggy backed on running/booting OtherOS, there would be nothing they could do but possibly remove it.
Edited by RagingCain - 2/22/11 at 7:35am
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post #60 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post
I agree with you, I wish that they had patched OtherOS, but it doesn't change the fact that its their right to remove it. I THINK (as in MY OPINION) it would have been less "douche-baggery" had they just patched whatever it was that Geohot claimed he could do.

All in all whether you believe Geohot was full of it at the time, he certainly was more than able to hack the system regardless, which kind of strengthens the story that maybe he did find the original security flaw that he claimed and Sony possibly realized there was nothing they could do it.

If the flaw piggy backed on running/booting OtherOS, there would be nothing they could do but possibly remove it.
You don't think Sony would have? They would have shot out an instant update without any consent required to patch ONLY the security hole. They obviously can't without resorting to a massive recollection of all units, which is impossible. Their only option was to remove OtherOS altogether.
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