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[ArsTechnica] "OtherOS" class-action lawsuit: GeoHot, Sony now share same charge - Page 7

post #61 of 172
I honestly don't hack, program Operating Systems, work in Sony's dev department, I am not a fail0verfl0w member, this is so far out of my playground.

Again, Sony, like the poster above me stated, never posted any real evidence and it was almost like they did it out of fear. That being said we only saw a glimpse of how bad the breach was. If there was no way to stop/patch it, there may have been no options but removal.

Sony could have told us something, other than we will be removing it, and then removing it. I also believe it was announced on April Fool's Day... which they don't celebrate in Japan. That didn't help out.

I am for Sony winning because it was legal and probably for the best (fighting piracy, fighting hacks & exploits, fighting other forms of "douche-baggery".) Honest consumers are caught in the middle between corporations and denizens of our planet who don't give a flying #$!@ about anyone else and feel they can do what they please whenever they please.

That is why true hackers, crackers, and security experts look down on these cyber-anarchists. ANYBODY can set a building on fire, but hardly anybody knows how to, or even can for that matter, build one.
Edited by RagingCain - 2/22/11 at 7:48am
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post #62 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by HealthyBigMac View Post
Wow, it sounds like Geohot might actually have a case. Here's a fantastic comment that I copy/pasted from the article, I think it sums up the situation very well.

They pointed out that, should an owner make that "choice" and not update they'd lose the ability to use PSN, and thus immediately lose the ability to play many games and additionally lose the ability to play future games requiring said updates. Thus, it was a Morton's Fork: your "free choices" were

A) Lose OtherOS, a core advertised feature that some people specifically purchased a PS3 to take advantage of
-OR-
B) Lose the ability to play games, with game playing obviously being a core feature of the PS3 (or any video game console).

This sort of double bind "choice" is often frowned upon in law. The plaintiff's lawyer gave the extreme example of having someone "freely" sign a contract while being dangled over a balcony. Hey, it's totally your choice right!? After all, you can always say no (and fall to your doom). Obviously any such agreement created under such circumstances is legally void. In this case, Sony presented "Get the update, or lose the ability to play games, a core feature of your console" as the choice. Saying that owners were "free not to update" may quite reasonably not pass legal muster, though of course it's going to take an actual ruling to decide, this whole thing is only getting started.
Problem there is that the article forgets is that it isn't a core advertised part of the product. Never was. There was just alot of publicity around the people who did use Linux for such projects like the military.
And to be honest - no one in their right mind purchased the PS3 for Linux specifically. Maybe to tinker with it, but the OtherOS feature was so limited in use: the most you could really do with it was browse the web with a real web browser instead of the PS3 one which honestly made no difference. Both are hindered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthPryos
Some services may be PROVIDED to you automatically; not removed. The OtherOS removal update surely was not provided automatically; I recall the very day that it aired. Sony announced its details 3 days before the update and made it completely optional to download. The user DID consent by downloading the update, which in turn means they agreed to any new changes in the terms of service.

The intent of using the OtherOS feature is completely out of the equation. The entire claim is that Geo bypassed the system's security, which is both against Sony's EULA and closed source software protection laws. End of story. It doesn't MATTER if he's pirating or not; that's not the current issue at hand. Sure, Sony is trying to prevent piracy, but that is not at all their strong point in court that they're trying to use as they don't need that to bring Geo down. "Geo, did you or did you not bypass the PS3's security encryption to regain a feature that we legitimately removed within our terms of service?" "Yes, I did." "Ok, so you have violated both our EULA and software protection laws."

Exactly all over.

Obviously if Sony was granted authorization to confiscate Geo's computer, the courts approved of their EULA. Their EULA is totally within their rights to protect their intellectual property. EULA IS overruled by law, but when a EULA is WITHIN the law there is no overrule to be done.
Yep. Everytime you download an update - you can't install it without agreeing to Sony's EULA. The second you go to install it - it lists the changes and then the EULA. You need to accept it in order to install it. It's been like that since patch one of the PS3.

Though, according to Karakotas - 3.56 was forced automatically to users as of late. I don't know how, or why because it didn't happen to mine. I know that my PS3 did update automatically but only because I have PlayStation+ and it's autopatch downloader enabled, which I agree to automatically accept any and all patches or firmware updates.

And he didn't just violate software laws either. He broke several trademark and copyright ones too. The Sony signature keys are their intellectual and probably patented properties. He used them to make CFWs, he's going to bite the bullet for that no matter what. That's one of the main differences here as compared to jailbreaking an iPhone. It's not just security checks that are being removed - the CFWs more or less make a PS3 think you're Sony because you're using Sony's property: the signature keys.
Edited by OmegaNemesis28 - 2/22/11 at 7:49am
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post #63 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecchi-BANZAII!!! View Post
Wow, this is what you pulled out as your ace?

Either you're just making yourself look stupid intentionally or you really are.

Your comparison is worse than mine when it's 03:00 in the middle of the night...

I raged.
Hence I said it was a bad example, okay thicky?



It is actually 2:45AM where I am. But that's not when I posted that
post #64 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post
ISony could have told us something, other than we will be removing it, and then removing it.
What more can one ask for than "there's a major security issue and we need to remove it" though? I mean, I understand; It would have been nice for Sony to specifically mention that the security hole inevitably will lead to online game cheats, but there's not much more that NEEDS to be said.

Edit: Actually, they sort of did even mention that.

Quote:
In addition, disabling the “Other OS” feature will help ensure that PS3 owners will continue to have access to the broad range of gaming and entertainment content from SCE and its content partners on a more secure system.
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/...-v3-21-update/
Edited by Stealth Pyros - 2/22/11 at 7:51am
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post #65 of 172
Quote:
This feature enabled users to install an operating system, but due to security concerns, Sony Computer Entertainment will remove the functionality through the 3.21 system software update.
I agree with you, but even you can admit its vague. I wanted to know more. I know corporations like to keep things simple and dumb (except for the ToS) but I can handle the big words.

They never explicitly said there was a breach or even a legitimate hack (not that it matters now) but what did they find and how bad is it. Thats all I was commenting on. What if they had removed the feature just on here-say? Wouldn't that be wrong (I am not saying they did)?

You have to see it from my perspective though, I was actually using that silly OtherOS feature, so I wanted a bit more meat and potato informacion!
Edited by RagingCain - 2/22/11 at 7:58am
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post #66 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by XNine View Post
So.... what's the problem?
He's the problem.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post
I agree with you, but even you can admit its vague. I wanted to know more. I know corporations like to keep things simple and dumb (except for the ToS) but I can handle the big words.

They never explicitly said there was a breach or even a legitimate hack (not that it matters now) but what did they find and how bad is it. Thats all I was commenting on. What if they had removed the feature just on here-say? Wouldn't that be wrong (I am not saying they did)?

You have to see it from my perspective though, I was actually using that silly OtherOS feature, so I wanted a bit more meat and potato informacion!
I know what you meant, I wasn't bashing on your "they should have said more" view. My guess is why would they specifically say that the OtherOS has a security hole where users can install homebrew and pirate games? They would then risk making millions of more people aware of the capability to do so, which in turn makes them curious and look into it further.
Edited by Stealth Pyros - 2/22/11 at 8:02am
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post #67 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by pash1k View Post
I knew I'd see Stealth_Pyros and XNine on the last page of this thread.
Somehow, I'm not surprised.
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post #68 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsm106 View Post
somehow, i'm not surprised.
+1.
post #69 of 172
Oooooo *shrinks and shivers* an army against 3... it's too bad your bullets aren't lethal.
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post #70 of 172
I guess what leaves a bad taste in my mouth (beyond the Netflix thing, if they would just go back to how it was when it was disc-based I would gladly shut up about that part) is just the way Sony handles things. I mean, since not being on the latest firmware blocks PSN as is, would it really be such a big deal if they said

"Here is firmware 3.56_rev. B, which automatically disables PSN access but restores otherOS capability, with security holes A through X patched. We will continue this line of firmware as more core-OS features and/or security holes are found, but by using this firmware you agree to give up PSN until and unless you return to "Rev.A" branch firmware."

I mean, that's basically where we are at now, with Rev. B being replaced by CFW, but with the downside of the whole piracy angle. Which IMO should be treated, along with the online hacking, as separate issues and addressed on the developer/server end of things.

It just seems as absurd as if Microsoft one day said "We have discovered a potential security hole in Windows Media Player that could allow for running unauthorized code, so we are removing WMP with the next update". Bad PR, ineffective at addressing the root issue, and in general just pissing a lot of customers off.
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