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[ArsTechnica] "OtherOS" class-action lawsuit: GeoHot, Sony now share same charge - Page 10

post #91 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post
Ok:

Show me an ad.

If you do find one, which you won't, then read this:



http://legaldoc.dl.playstation.net/p..._tosua_en.html

You agree to THAT when you create your PSN account. When the update that removed OtherOS was released on April 1st, you were not forced to download and apply it. You had the option of declining the update.

In other words, the PS3 came with OtherOS. If OtherOS was advertised, the PS3 met its advertised promise, and Sony reserved the right to remove it any time later. They could have removed it days after launch, ESPECIALLY if they give you the option to decline the update.
That clause does not say they can take away features. Only that updates may cause loss of content (assumed by a failure during an update). Try making that crappy excuse stand in court.
    
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post #92 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by BravoV3 View Post
PS3 got Netflix through a DISC back in November of 2009. OtherOS was removed in March of 2010. If you wanted Netflix to be streamed over the internet connection without a special disc then you would have needed to update. You can say well you could continue using the disk, but many people had gripes with that.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10393171-1.html

http://blog.netflix.com/2010/10/wii-...disc-free.html
that isn't what you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BravoV3 View Post
Only problem with that is, if you want Netflix at all you'd need to have updated your console via firmware. Netflix came well after OtherOs was removed.
you said it came after it was removed...
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post #93 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
That clause does not say they can take away features. Only that updates may cause loss of content (assumed by a failure during an update). Try making that crappy excuse stand in court.
... Where are you pulling THAT out of?

"Without limitation" covers that base.

Quote:
Without limitation, such content or services may include automatic updates or upgrades which may change your current operating system, cause a loss of data or content or cause a loss of functionalities or utilities.
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post #94 of 172
I hope they lose, just for the sole reason I like watching large corporations get curb stomped.
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post #95 of 172
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAG_%28video_game%29

So if I want to keep OtherOS your saying I can't play this game? Legally your putting me in a position where I cripple the abilities of my system to play a game I payed for. I payed for all the services of the PS3, I paid for the ability to run OtherOS.

What your saying is that they have the right to take away my paid for ability (legal right to the service) at will? That's like me saying your music player can play MP3/WMA then releasing new software that only plays WMA. Oh I'm sorry, you legally can't modify that music player to play MP3 because that's not within your legal right. I don't see how that's legally right. [edit] That's not quite the case, if you want the ability to use WMA streaming (which only some music groups are offering [edit] Some music groups only offer streaming, that's more appropriate to the MAG concept) you have to upgrade. I'm sorry that you might have paid for those streaming services before the update, but now in order to continue using them you have to update and lose the ability to play MP3.
Edited by mushroomboy - 2/22/11 at 1:08pm
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post #96 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post
What your saying is that they have the right to take away my paid for ability (legal right to the service) at will? That's like me saying your music player can play MP3/WMA then releasing new software that only plays WMA. Oh I'm sorry, you legally can't modify that music player to play MP3 because that's not within your legal right.
It's more radical than that. It is like if you do an update, they not only erase your ability to play MP3, they erase all of the MP3 files, then disconnect the machine from the Internet.

It's one thing to enforce rules by giving cheaters the boot off of PSN, it is another thing to have a program go onto a machine and start erasing stuff. In other words, Sony's tactic is nothing short of a trojan horse, out to trash your stuff because they have something against it. It is no different from their root kits - stuff that kept me away from the PS3 in the first place.
post #97 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanPitts View Post
It's more radical than that. It is like if you do an update, they not only erase your ability to play MP3, they erase all of the MP3 files, then disconnect the machine from the Internet.

It's one thing to enforce rules by giving cheaters the boot off of PSN, it is another thing to have a program go onto a machine and start erasing stuff. In other words, Sony's tactic is nothing short of a trojan horse, out to trash your stuff because they have something against it. It is no different from their root kits - stuff that kept me away from the PS3 in the first place.
Yeah I added that as an extra clause to make it a more fair comparison. Basically you have purchased said software that was supposed to run on the internet through their device. They said that was fine, you can do that AND OtherOS. Now they say you can't, you have to choose. Either of those functions can interact in a way as to alter your civil liberties. Basically they manipulate your constitutional rights. I don't think secondary features have the ability to be that powerful, so they would both constitute as primary features. This would then make what sony did illegal, making you choose between two primary features of their device.

THAT is how it is illegal. But yeah, I'm in agreement with you.

[edit] I'm actually very good at pushing a case. =P I've had to plan out legal adventures before, you have to really think outside the box. You also have to think for EVERYONE. What makes a primary feature? Can they take away a feature that alters your civil liberties? How do features interact with your civil liberties, are their functions constitutional? It's a huge mess and not really as simple as "sony didn't advertise it, it's not a primary feature". That's not what makes a feature primary, so we have to establish boundaries for the software. This is actually going to be a huge case.
Edited by mushroomboy - 2/22/11 at 1:20pm
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post #98 of 172
Thread Starter 
I don't understand why people are arguing so vehemently to prove that Sony has the right to remove certain functionality from stuff you purchased.

Let's say they do have the right to remove certain functions. Really, that seems like it's awesome? It's good that Sony can remove things without "limitation" through updates? That seems like a good precedent for other companies to follow?

I've heard the argument that the removal of OtherOS is in the consumer interest in that it was designed to prevent the majority of consumers from hackers who would compromise the security of the system. That argument is flawed in the sense that Sony put themselves in a situation where they have to sacrifice the interests of a minority group of consumers who were interested in Linux for the vast majority of those who were interested in security. If Sony couldn't secure its system with OtherOS, that's corporate negligence on its part for putting it in there in the first place. Instead of finding an alternate way of securing their system without sacrificing Linux, Sony decided to take the easy way out and simply sacrifice the interests of a small portion of their consumers. Sony has a responsibility to secure the system without removing functionality for any of their consumers. It is not the responsibility of the consumers to help Sony maintain security.

Why argue against consumer rights and argue for more corporate leverage in how they treat you? I guarantee you that Sony or any corporation rarely has your best interests at heart. The fact that some PS3 games require later firmware to obtain make the argument that PSN was not an implied feature at time of purchase. What about the ability to play GT5? It seems fair that Sony should force you to choose between Linux and the ability to play GT5? You shouldn't have been able to reasonable able to expect to do both when purchasing the PS3 back in 2006?

The bottom line is regardless of EULA or anything else in fine print that Sony defrauded a portion of its customers. Imagine a hypothetical person bought a PS3 in 2006 to play GT5 when it came out and also needed it to run Linux. They shouldn't have been able to expect to do both in 2010? I'm not going to waste my time parsing EULAs but the fact that it's included in fine print does not mean it's right. Credit card companies have been sued all the time for misrepresentation and fraud despite taking the time to cover their asses in fine print. It doesn't make it right. Consumers should have a certain right to reasonably expect certain protections when making purchases. This should be one of them because I don't see how anyone can argue that this was a not a raw deal for the hypothetical consumer who bought the PS3 to play GT5 and run Linux. Regardless of EULAs, this was a bad-faith move on Sony's part and is an importance case for consumer protection in an era where more and more products are going to include software based components. Security should not be an excuse for removing functionality. Sony's responsibility is to find a way to provide both.
Edited by bravos89 - 2/22/11 at 2:19pm
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post #99 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by bravos89 View Post
...
Exactly, the EULA isn't law and never has been. It's a guideline, how can people not see that? I've been saying for years the EULA isn't something you legally should follow. If you don't legally have to follow it neither do they; a null contract can go both ways. That however doesn't mean what the EULA says or doesn't say is legally right. =)

I never thought about the credit card companies, they have done this MANY times before (and probably will, hehe).

+1
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post #100 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post
Exactly, the EULA isn't law and never has been. It's a guideline, how can people not see that? I've been saying for years the EULA isn't something you legally should follow. If you don't legally have to follow it neither do they; a null contract can go both ways. That however doesn't mean what the EULA says or doesn't say is legally right. =)

I never thought about the credit card companies, they have done this MANY times before (and probably will, hehe).

+1
I was always under the impression it is legally binding, but can be overridden by courts.
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