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Overclocking from scratch

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 
Hey guys,

Let me point out: I am completely new to overclocking. I have never done it, but I want to and I have read 1 or 2 things around regarding what it is a the types of speeds different CPUs can reach.

Based on my specs and the components I use how should I go about OCing my system, should I use the BIOS or those noob friendly options Asus include?

Also, I am ONLY going to be using air cooling so if you reply please keep that in mind.

I want to OC my CPU, GPU and Memory to a reasonable level. If anyone can give me some pointers of a tutorial per say on what to do it would be great!
Edited by Fluidz - 2/26/11 at 8:36am
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post #2 of 16
there will be prbably be a guid to overclockin in the intel part of the forum near the top (i dont go there xD)
post #3 of 16
Quote:
Hey guys,
Hi!

Quote:
Based on my specs and the components I use how should I go about OCing my system, should I use the BIOS or those noob friendly options Asus include?
Always use the BIOS. Unless your bench-testing.

Quote:
Also, I am ONLY going to be using air cooling so if you reply please keep that in mind.
Need some more info. What kind of air cooling? Like the cheap but really effective CM Hyper 212+? The more expensive but super-effective Silver Arrow/NH-D14?

Quote:
I want to OC my CPU, GPU and Memory to a reasonable level. If anyone can give me some pointers of a tutorial per say on what to do it would be great!
Check the stickies at the top of the Intel forum. There are a lot of guides there.
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post #4 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluidz View Post
Hey guys,

Let me point out: I am completely new to overclocking. I have never done it, but I want to and I have read 1 or 2 things around regarding what it is a the types of speeds different CPUs can reach.

Based on my specs and the components I use how should I go about OCing my system, should I use the BIOS or those noob friendly options Asus include?

Also, I am ONLY going to be using air cooling so if you reply please keep that in mind.

I want to OC my CPU, GPU and Memory to a reasonable level. If anyone can give me some pointers of a tutorial per say on what to do it would be great!
Since you are new to OC you need to read a lot more things..
Based on your specs and the components(IHS) go about OCing very little.
Use BIOS not those noob friendly options to OC.
To OC GPU / set GPU fan manually use riva>
http://www.guru3d.com/index.php?page=rivatuner
To OC cpu & memory, you need to understand BIOS first.

OCN Intel CPU Essentials Collected Guides >
http://www.overclock.net/intel-cpus/...ed-guides.html


Google >asus rampage ii extreme review (over 1 million avail).
Read the complete review(s), paying special attn to BIOS.
It's up to you how many you need to read.

a few examples>
http://www.overclockersclub.com/revi..._extreme/5.htm
http://www.overclockersclub.com/revi..._extreme/6.htm
http://www.pureoverclock.com/review.php?id=729&page=7


++++++++++=
Read your user manual.


If you do not understand a particlar items purpose in BIOS..DO NOT change it.
Dont
use CPU level up etc to OC.
use XMP to OC ram
use tweak it to OC.

Buy a good air cooler, other than intel stock.
Manually enter OC in BIOS, by each item, vcore, dram bus, etc.
DRAM freq & timing is another subject
.
Note what voltage your cpu voltage (vcore) is set by factory , under load (prime95).
Use vcore load voltage value as a guide to manually setting vcore manually later, @ stock cpu freq.
LLC will offer confusion to this value.

This can be monitored by RealTemp, it shows min & max value>
http://www.techpowerup.com/realtemp/

* you can use coretemp or others

While you are at it, write down everything you change, unless you have good memory.
By memory I mean recall, not DRAM, lol.

Something that you can do w/o any harm is >

1) Ai Overclock Tuner to [maual] ( this will let you see more), note b4 & after view of Extreme Tweak page.
2) set your DRAM BUS to manu spec. voltage
Most likely it is 1.65v , google your model ram.

3) In main screen [disable] Legacy Diskette , unless you have one.

3a) If a value is changed in BIOS you must save it (F10 key).


Something you have to understand is how to reset BIOS to default.
If you start changing things in BIOS, too abruptly / aggressive PC will Lock, fail to POST, etc.
DEL / F5 / F10 , or remove cmos battery, etc. for future. reference.


You will only be able to do a small OC with stock IHS.

Tweak it and level up are tempting to use , but be patient BIOS manually set is better!

Those noob friendly progs. tend to overvolt.

A lot of reading is needed, unable to give complete list

I gave you a few pointers, not A to Z...I'm tired, need some zzzzzzz.
good luck.

btw Welcome to OCN
post #5 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluidz View Post
Hey guys,

Let me point out: I am completely new to overclocking. I have never done it, but I want to and I have read 1 or 2 things around regarding what it is a the types of speeds different CPUs can reach.

Based on my specs and the components I use how should I go about OCing my system, should I use the BIOS or those noob friendly options Asus include?

Also, I am ONLY going to be using air cooling so if you reply please keep that in mind.

I want to OC my CPU, GPU and Memory to a reasonable level. If anyone can give me some pointers of a tutorial per say on what to do it would be great!
Lol you sound exactly like I did a few months ago when I first got into OC. I did a lot of research on this site and there is a library full of info on here. First I would download CPU-Z and Real Temp so you can monitor your heat temps and see what your system is currently at. The links that M1 posted are good I kinda like the grandpa style while it takes more time you can get better effeminacy if you are into that other wise on a stock intel cooler like I am (wc parts should arrive any day now) I have a stable but hot OC of about 3.8 GHz on 1.18 V I had to put my case near my open window in order to keep it cold enough a prime 95 stable test but it works. 21X multi is the easiest I have read to use. In order to determine core speed its multi x bclock = cpu speed in Mhz you can mess around with the voltage settings probably lower to reach max efficiency. Hope this helps some. I haven't gotten much into gpu and ram ocing yet cause the parts I have currently suffice for 90% of the stuff I do.
Edited by Arksniper - 2/23/11 at 10:49pm
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post #6 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plex View Post
Always use the BIOS. Unless your bench-testing.
Gotcha
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plex View Post
Need some more info. What kind of air cooling? Like the cheap but really effective CM Hyper 212+? The more expensive but super-effective Silver Arrow/NH-D14?
I am currently using stock and the normal cooling in a Thermaltake Element V (Can anyone confirm if it is a good case in terms of air cooling/intake/output CFM).

I do plan to buy some quality fans, so if anyone can give me some names and I will check if I can get them in Australia.
Vendors I use;

Netplus Micro computers
Austin Computers
PC Case Gear
MSY Computers
PLE Computers

Or any others that sell the product needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plex View Post
Check the stickies at the top of the Intel forum. There are a lot of guides there.
Am I blind? I couldn't see any stickies other than 1-2 at the top of all Intel forums.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M1 Abrams View Post
Since you are new to OC you need to read a lot more things..
Based on your specs and the components(IHS) go about OCing very little.
Use BIOS not those noob friendly options to OC.
To OC GPU / set GPU fan manually use riva>
http://www.guru3d.com/index.php?page=rivatuner
To OC cpu & memory, you need to understand BIOS first.
I downloaded and updated RivaTuner to the latest. I installed CPU-Z and should I just read all the OC guides and reviews on BIOS for the Rampage II Extreme? I only planned to OC a little until I finish my school year and can pump mega buks into OCing (when I work a lot).

Quote:
Originally Posted by M1 Abrams View Post
OCN Intel CPU Essentials Collected Guides >
http://www.overclock.net/intel-cpus/...ed-guides.html
Many thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M1 Abrams View Post
Google >asus rampage ii extreme review (over 1 million avail).
Read the complete review(s), paying special attn to BIOS.
It's up to you how many you need to read.

a few examples>
http://www.overclockersclub.com/revi..._extreme/5.htm
http://www.overclockersclub.com/revi..._extreme/6.htm
http://www.pureoverclock.com/review.php?id=729&page=7
So just pay attention to the options in the BIOS, what the reviewer says regarding it? What the mobos strengths/weaknesses are?

Quote:
Originally Posted by M1 Abrams View Post
++++++++++=
Read your user manual.


If you do not understand a particlar items purpose in BIOS..DO NOT change it.
Dont
use CPU level up etc to OC.
use XMP to OC ram
use tweak it to OC.
Understood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M1 Abrams View Post
Buy a good air cooler, other than intel stock.
Recommendations from the list of vendors above?
Quote:
Originally Posted by M1 Abrams View Post
Manually enter OC in BIOS, by each item, vcore, dram bus, etc.
DRAM freq & timing is another subject
So what should I do for DRAM? Is that needed when I OC my CPU since I am upping the FSB, wouldn't that increase the frequency the RAM works on? Since Intel replaces that with QPI. Or am I completely mistaken in the functionality?

Quote:
Originally Posted by M1 Abrams View Post
Note what voltage your cpu voltage (vcore) is set by factory , under load (prime95).
Use vcore load voltage value as a guide to manually setting vcore manually later, @ stock cpu freq.
LLC will offer confusion to this value.

This can be monitored by RealTemp, it shows min & max value>
http://www.techpowerup.com/realtemp/

* you can use coretemp or others
So... check my vcore value by default, say that is (for simplicity) 1.
Under load the vcore increases? So if it goes to 2 I should set it manually to 2 later without changing the CPU frequency at all? If that is correct, what does changing the vcore value do in terms of speed or w/e effect it has?

LLC?

RealTemp monitors the maximum and minimum vcore value so I will use that then? Could I use programs like CPU-Z or AIDA(Previously Everest) to do this instead? Or should I stick with RealTemp?

Quote:
Originally Posted by M1 Abrams View Post
While you are at it, write down everything you change, unless you have good memory.
By memory I mean recall, not DRAM, lol.

Something that you can do w/o any harm is >

1) Ai Overclock Tuner to [maual] ( this will let you see more), note b4 & after view of Extreme Tweak page.
2) set your DRAM BUS to manu spec. voltage
Most likely it is 1.65v , google your model ram.

3) In main screen [disable] Legacy Diskette , unless you have one.

3a) If a value is changed in BIOS you must save it (F10 key).
I take it that means mess around with the features Asus provides, so I can do testing? Or...

Quote:
Originally Posted by M1 Abrams View Post
Something you have to understand is how to reset BIOS to default.
If you start changing things in BIOS, too abruptly / aggressive PC will Lock, fail to POST, etc.
DEL / F5 / F10 , or remove cmos battery, etc. for future. reference.
This motherboard has a CMOS reset button on the back I/O ports.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M1 Abrams View Post
You will only be able to do a small OC with stock IHS.
IHS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by M1 Abrams View Post
Tweak it and level up are tempting to use , but be patient BIOS manually set is better!

Those noob friendly progs. tend to overvolt.

A lot of reading is needed, unable to give complete list

I gave you a few pointers, not A to Z...I'm tired, need some zzzzzzz.
good luck.

btw Welcome to OCN
Thanks for the help and for the welcome

Sorry for the tonne of questions, I just want to make sure I understand things 110%. I am very grateful for the help!
Edited by Fluidz - 2/24/11 at 2:07am
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post #7 of 16
[QUOTE=Fluidz;![/QUOTE]

I downloaded and updated RivaTuner to the latest. I installed CPU-Z and should I just read all the OC guides and reviews on BIOS for the Rampage II Extreme? I only planned to OC a little until I finish my school year and can pump mega buks into OCing (when I work a lot).

yes you should read some OC guides & reviews on BIOS to farmiliarize yourself.
My "style" is not to just jump into something until I know the consequences, common sense for me
You need to know what effects entering values can do.
If you learn to overclock a little, (stable) you will have the ability to OC a LOT 4Ghz +, same items in BIOS changed with 4Ghz or 3Ghz, just different amounts.
Write down everything you change in BIOS, so you wont be saying"boy I wish I could recall those stable sets I had"


So just pay attention to the options in the BIOS, what the reviewer says regarding it? What the mobos strengths/weaknesses are?

yes, this helps you to understand what each item in BIOS does.
Although on those review its not a step by step way to overclock.

Recommendations from the list of vendors above?

vendor links you gave I saw 3 good Heatsinks on PC Case Gear
I use Scythe "G" 120mm fluid bearing for case fans & cpu, on PC Case Gear link also
120mm fan "g"> http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?...oducts_id=7570
1366 coolers>http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?...ath=207_23_769
PC Case Gear has a LOT.
Just what I use, personal pref.
High speed fans are noisy, I never hear them in gaming.
I would sacrifice cool for noise anyday, a decision you need to make on high rpm fans.

Some nice cpu coolers>
any Noctua, prefer the NH D14, pricey$$
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?...ducts_id=13232
VenomousX http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?...ducts_id=14913
I have this Mega> http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?...ducts_id=11125
with (2) scythe g push/pull
* usually the more you pay $$ , the better it cools.

So what should I do for DRAM? Is that needed when I OC my CPU since I am upping the FSB, wouldn't that increase the frequency the RAM works on? Since Intel replaces that with QPI. Or am I completely mistaken in the functionality?

enter manu spec volts 1.65 like I said earlier.,
your ram> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820145258
oc DRAM or setting to specs is easy , one thing @ a time cpu first.
leave ram on auto till we get cpu oc a bit.
You did set Ai oc tuner to manual?
You did enter 1.65v( manu spec?) DRAM BUS? then you will be able to oc cpu & DRAM will "auto" follow.
You did [disable] floppy?
Yes as you increase or decrease BCLK or Ratio , DRAM freq is directly proportional and will increase/decrease.
So will UCLK & QPI link...confused yet?
UCLK value has to be twice that of ram ex: if ram 1600, uclk will be minimum 3200.
auto will/should do that for you.
You are right on with FSB QPI function



LLC?
Under load the vcore increases?

vcore might increase/decrease with load, depends on a few things>
BIOS advanced menu speedstep ( which lowers vcore at idle, increases to approx entered value at load.).I [disable] that.
LLC [enabled] means BIOS controls vcore voltage under load to steady amout entered.
LLC [disabled} means intel takes control of vcore , so under load vcore will decrease below amount entered.
With LLC [enabled] you will have a more steady vcore, close to amount entered , thus a more stable OC.
So, take it off auto & enable it,

So if it goes to 2 I should set it manually to 2 later without changing the CPU frequency at all? yes, set it to 2 (for simplicity) as this will be stable vcore under load, @ stock cpu freq. (p95) as read on cpu-z.
you will also need to manually increase qpi/dram core volts for stable overclock., usually around 1.25~1.30v

"what does changing the vcore value do in terms of speed or w/e effect it has?"

You need to increase vcore to increase cpu freq/speed.
If you leave(manually set) vcore on "2" at default cpu freq, its good, but increase speed (freq) it will fail.
Im talking a substantial increase of speed not 1 Mhz

Basically> manually set vcore to load amount read in prime95/cpu-z while vcore is auto.(2) @ stock freq.
This value(2) will be starting base for any increase in cpu freq.& will be stable @ stock freq.
if cpu freq is 2.8Ghz @ (2) vcore , then if you increase cpu freq to 3.0Ghz you can guesstimate it will need (2.3).

RealTemp monitors the maximum and minimum vcore value so I will use that then?
realtemp for temps
read max load vcore from cpu-z value

Could I use programs like CPU-Z or AIDA(Previously Everest) to do this instead? yes, its always good idea to compare one to the other, for peace of mind.
Use the one you like the best.
I just mentioned realtemp as one to use, there are many.

I take it that means mess around with the features Asus provides, so I can do testing? Or...in order to make manual sets you need to do this first Ai Overclock Tuner to [maual]
change LLC to [enable]
then volts
then freqs

The features asus provides are not noob level up etc.that we will use
watch cpu coretemps always.
btw coretemp another useful prog> http://www.alcpu.com/CoreTemp/

This motherboard has a CMOS reset button on the back I/O ports.

mine does too I think, but I never use it, tried, no luck.
If you are "locked" no screen, failed oc,, CMOS button might not rescue you.
I enter BIOS & set default if need be.
or
* remember these>
If you have a "failed oc" power off pc, unplug it, wait 5 mins power on and IMMEDIATELY del key to bios, press F5/F10.
Basically CPU Perimeter Recall.
If this fails to give you a screen after failed bios sets....remove battery for few mins, power on , enter bios, set defaults, one of these should get POST

IHS?
intel heat sink abbreviated, sorry.

also means this ,Integrated Heat Spreader which is attatched to core of processor
Ready to try a small oc? ill try to put something step by step together for ya, back in a few.

EDIT>
When running prime95 blend @ stock before changing anything, open cpu-z to monitor vcore, temp prog for temps, run for 20 mins , watching temps not to exceed 80c cores.(intel stock HS take care).
note all readings, vcore & temps min/max

Sorry this sentence should have read
Temps (not This) can be monitored by RealTemp, it shows min & max value>
http://www.techpowerup.com/realtemp/
Edited by M1 Abrams - 2/28/11 at 5:56pm
post #8 of 16
[QUOTE=Fluidz;elp![/QUOTE]

for 3.18G oc
your ram will be on 1594MHz (956MHz/1274/1594/1913/32231/2550 choices available)
ratio 20
bclk 159
uclk 3187
qpi link 5738

for 3.003G
cpu ratio 21
bclk 143
ram 1433 (860/1146/1433/1720/2006/2293)
uclk 2866
qpi link 5161

3.0G
ratrio 20
bclk 150
ram 1503 (902/1202/1503/1805/2105/2406)
uclk 3007
qpi link 5414

4G
ratio 20
bclk 200
ram 1433 (860/1146/1433/1720/2006/2293)
uclk 3208
qpi link 7218

4.011G
ratio 21
bclk 191
ram 1531 (1149/1531/1914/2298/2680/3063
uclk 3063
qpi 6893

4.641G
ratio 21
bclk 221
ram 1329 ( 1329/1771/2215/2659/3101/3544)
uclk 2659
qpi link 7976

Above are a few cpu clocks with corresponding values.

To select a dram freq value for ex. scroll to it , its hilited white,press enter, scroll to value you want, press enter
We need to be close to 1600MHz, specs of dram.
Above next to ram you see 6 choices each time.
To change bclk or multiplier or a voltage,scroll to it, its hilited white,enter value on key board, press enter.
Some ratios & bclk's are even #'s, some are odd, some cpu's dont like even #'s.
So the oc with odd #'s might be more stable @ a given vcore with same qpi/dram core voltage.



1) A easy way to start is Ai OC Tuner to [manual] F10
Desktop

restart & del to bios
2) enter dram bus 1.65v (leave it there)
3) set vcore 1.25v( this is a guess as I dont know your temp @ that volt.)
We are attempting to enter the highest vcore you can w/o overheating.
4) Enter qpi/dram core 1.28v / F10 save
5) LLC [enable] F10
6) speedstep [disable] F10

7) Run prime and monitor temp max @ 1.25 vcore, for approx 20 mins.@ stock cpu freq.
If temp below 80c we will use 1.25vcore for 3.003G cpu clock.
If temps exceed 80c, close prime, then lower vcore till temps are good.
What we are trying to do is see what vcore your intel heatsink can support.

Lets give 3.003G a try, you can do any above clocks you want with proper cooling.
If stable & cool at these 1.25 vcore & 1.28 qpi/dram core voltages, thats good.
I have no idea what max vcore you discovered at stock (auto) volts & freq's, primee95.cpu-z
1.25vcore should be ok with intel sink, you need to see.

* note> must never let difference between qpi/dram core voltage & DRAM BUS exceed .5v (1/2v).
Damage can occur.
For ex: dram bus voltage of 1.7v while qpi/dram core is at 1.2v is borderline.
You are good at 1.65v minus 1.28v = .37v , within .5v envelope.



8) ext tweaker menu>

scroll to cpu ratio , press 21,press enter /
scroll to bclk press 143, press enter
scroll to dram freq select 1433, press enter
verify amounts (look at them ) uclk & qpi link freqs [auto] should be ok.
If values incorrect, change them, I put correct #'s at beginning of this post.
* uclk 2x ram freq, etc

F10

During autorestart, you may get a "falseboot" doubleboot.
Its normal , BIOS is trying to capture what you just changed.

there ya go see if stable prime blend , 20 mins is fine.
Later you can lower both vcore & qpi/dram core in small increments until instability occurs.
Then raise v's till stable.
* unless temps are satisfactory, and your happy, leave volts where they are.

That will tell you the minimum stable volt at that particular freq.
Object is to find minimum stable volt , so, it takes a lot of time.
Once stable voltages are found , increase them another small increment for good measure.



9) later go to BIOS POWER/temp monitor/ and set NB/SB overheat to anything but "auto"


10) To set dram timing go to ext tweaker, scroll to DRAM Timing Control, press enter
at top you will/should see 1st info : 9-9-9-24-x-x-x-x-x-x

hilite dram cas# lat , press enter, select 9 dram clock
hilite dram ras # to cas# delay,press enter, select 9 dram clock
hilite dram ras# pre time press enter, select 9 dram clock
hilite dram ras# act time , press enter, select 24 dsram clock

** before setting dram timing mode , you need to provide #.
not sure if it is 1 or 2, look for specs, online or on package. before changing.

scroll down to DRAM Timing Mode, press enter, select 1 or 2 ?, press enter
F10

no doubt you will get a double/false boot here.
You just set your dram timing manually, not oc but better than "auto"
later you can play with timing, but take care, cas 8 might not post.

F10 to save, esc to cancel.

This is a lot to take in, if anything doesnt sound clear, let me know.

EDIT> prime95 64bit> http://files.extremeoverclocking.com/file.php?f=205
Edited by M1 Abrams - 3/9/11 at 3:54pm
post #9 of 16
Thread Starter 
I don't currently have time to analyze the reply in great detail at the moment, but I obviously did read it

Sounds fine for now , could differ when I actually go to OC.

When I attempt an OC on stock cooling (to 3.18Ghz) I will edit a reply of stuff I don't understand, if any, in this post. I will PM you when I do that

Thanks for all the help mate! I am VERY appreciative of the time and effort you have put in.
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Aurora
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post #10 of 16
Nice to hear that you read it.
I type with two fingers so it's a lot of work

You can enter BIOS and enter any cpu ratio # or bclk and just observe what happens to uclk, ram etc.
Its a learning tool , they all are "connected" , change one value & 3 or more change with it.
Play around and put some cpu clocks together.
After playing around...... make sure you leave BIOS with esc escape key (dissregard changes).

In my last post"your ram will be on 1594MHz (956MHz/1274/1594/1913/32231/2550 available)
Overclocking ram is selecting the next highest value of Mhz from 1549 would be 1913Mhz
1913 Mhz will most likely lock pc as your ram is spec @ 1600Mhz
I selected 3.18Ghz & 20x & 159 base clock to get close to 1600Mhz.

Tightening timings 9-9-9-24 to 8-x-x-x is more difficult

A few more things should be ( up to you ) [disabled] in BIOS

Boot menu>
Full screen logo, [disable]

Cpu configuration menu>
C1E support ,virtualiztion tech,,execute disable bit,
Intel HT Tech ..approx 10c cooler when [diabled] , Intel C State tech, Speedstep, all [disable]

Extreme tweak menu>
PCI & CPU Spread Spectrum.[disable]

They do this..
Full Screen logo = irritates

C1E support = a cpu power saver.

virtualiztion tech = allows multiple OS to share a cpu.

Execute disable bit = Defends internet dangers(my gamer isnt online).

Intel HT Tech = enables multiple threads to run on each core

Intel C State tech = C is idle state, power saver basically.

speedstep = minimizes power draw.

Spread Spectrum.= eliminates electromagnetic interference I think.

LLC to [enabled] , few pages back = when [enabled] vDroop is eliminated and there’s actually a bit of vBoost under load

Floppy [disable}, if [enabled] prolongs boot time by about 1,000,000,000/sec, a guess lol

Remember after pressing BIOS F10 , let it go to desktop before going back to BIOS.

BIOS is not a light switch , you need to change things slowly, just a few per visit.
I avoid "locked" , no post situations that way.

See my last post #'s 1~10, I tried to do a step/step, key to key for ya.

Also 1.25v vcore is my guess for max with intel sink, you need to find max.
Then you need to find max cou clock for that max vcore.
If it will take higher vcore and keep cool then raise it , to enable higher oc.

If you get locked or no POST, I put remedy in this thread somewhere.
Ask any ?'s you need, I drop in now & then I'll try to answer them.

If you need help installing riva for GPU fan/oc let me know I did it a few times.
Prob should start thread for that here>http://www.overclock.net/nvidia/

When you do 3.18Ghz oc , there is no need to edit or reply in previous post unless its within 24 hrs.

You can make new posts in this oc scratch thread all you want, we have plenty of paper
Its easier to follow if you post new.
I dont think you can PM yet, you need a rep first.

weekend is upon us, gtg before it's back to work time monday
Glad to help.
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