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[Youtube] Battlefield 3 Premiere Gameplay Trailer - Page 21

post #201 of 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by thiru View Post
I didn't say that destruction has nothing to do with servers.
?
Yes you did. Read what you said. Explain yourself more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TriplePlay View Post
I didn't say that everything on the same engine looks the same, but if they have the same game engine running on the same computer then they absolutely have the capability to look the same.
They could look the same but does that mean that they will perform the same? I think not.

Quote:
No, but that's part of my point. The graphics don't have to do with that....
I would say it is not something that affects graphical QUALITY, as in the clarity and resolution of something, which is what I'm talking about. Texture resolution, model detail, and lighting effects do not add stress on the server. I mean, obviously they are a graphical feature.
Lighting effects actually would. If you had something like dynamic lighting in a game, you have to sync it up with every person in the game so that they could see the same thing. That would put more stress on the server. Unless of course you go the CS:S ragdoll route where everyone sees something different but that wouldn't make any sense.

Quote:
Yeah, but a moderatelydecent server with a decent connection has no problem running CS:S, even with mods
Do you think that servers run one and only one instance of a game? Woah now lol. When you rent a server, you're getting thrown in with about 5 or 6 other people if not more in a single box. You're not getting your own little cozy home.

You get a server with a Quad Core CPU and a mind blowingly good connection, you still can't barely pull off a 180 man CS:S box with mods. That's 3 CS:S servers filled with 60 people each. It's a lag fest. Trust me, I've done it myself. I though the same as you. I thought that game servers dont stress at all. I was dead wrong and I had it in practice.

At one point I tried BF2 and CS:S at the same time. Granted the BF2 server wasn't that popular because EA does not let you host your own ranked servers for any Battlefield game - you HAVE to rent - it got it's fair share of use. And whenever that BF2 server was in use, the CS:S servers got their good helping of good ol' lag. CPU usage can skyrocket with BF2, and how old is that game?

Quote:
That is not what I said, I didn't say "all it does is track players". I didn't state any limitation on what the server has to handle. I'm quite aware that it requires more resources than CSS or BF2. My logic is that there shouldn't be more that significantly more stress from the campaign graphics to the "lower-quality" multiplayer graphics.
Define lower-quality? If you mean something like native resolution or textures like you said earlier - no one in this thread has said that native resolution or textures has to do with gameservers. In case you haven't noticed, I've specifically said desctruction physics, hitboxes, lighting, number of players and interactive objects, and map size so far.

Quote:
You sure that it's a problem that the server has too much stress so it lags the hitboxes behind? Or that it's something else, or just poor coding or network handling? I'm not saying that stress won't affect it, but I don't believe that lowering the graphical quality from the single player campaign will make a noticeably big enough difference that they would need to do that.
Take out things like desctruction physics, reduce map sizes, number of players, and model sizes - yes. It would.

Quote:
I just personally don't understand what would stress it so much more. I'm not trying to sound condescending or sarcastic anywhere here, so please don't think it sounds that way when I say (with all seriousness):
Please enlighten me as to what exactly the server would have to handle more with the more intense graphics.
The server has to track a ton of stuff. Player positions/movements, hitboxes, interactive object locations, perhaps vehicles, and I almost forget bullet drop as well. All of that has to be processed, relayed to every player in the game at all times, in the quickest manner possible. Other things like health values, area of effect, perhaps draw distance, and sounds all has to be done as well. When one player shoots a rocket - who gets to hear it? The server needs to tell other players that this guy shot a rocket, activate their rocket firing sounds, and where he fired it too. How far away could some other player see this rocket? Across the map or did they have to be close? What about the drop, the trailing effect of the rocket, the damage the rocket does to the tank, the splash damage of the tank to the surrounding people, and what happens after all of that. Oh and let's not forget that the player with rocket is now reloading as well, gotta display that animation to everyone. The server has to process and send all of that.

What graphics like to do with that can be quite varying.
Does that tank explode? Do pieces go everywhere? Does everyone in the game get to see that? Every player does get sent info on where those pieces landed and where that tank blew up to display models.
Complex animations can also have an effect. Does everyone have one set reloading animation, does everyone see different animations or is it one set thing?
Map size can extent all of this. There is now more location data for the server to process and who/what gets to see it. Makes everything more complex.

Lighting like you mentioned before can also have an effect. Dynamic lighting or perhaps time of day as Crysis does also needs to be relayed to other people.

Props. Objects. If there are alot of interactive objects that are going to react to gunfire and explosions, where are they, what are they doing, and if they get affected - how. Cause and effect. Server has to relay all of that information as well. If everything is static - say that street lamp being blown up - then there is nothing to process.

Hitboxes. Are character models complex? Do they have complex animations? Do those animations change the location of people's hitboxes? How many different hitboxes do people have? How fast do those hitboxes change? Those are graphics if you think about it. You can't see hitboxes, but what about the model they correspond to?

Quote:
I understand the destructible environment would cause some more stress, and that may indeed be turned down. But in all honesty, if that's all they lowered in terms of graphics settings, then that's hardly even worth mentioning as long as it looks decent.
That's the case with BC2. Game looks great, it's a bit toned down in multiplayer though in comparison to SP. Doesn't really make much of a difference.

I just dont think those graphics in this trailer are going to correspond to the gameplay in multiplayer. I don't think you're going to have one of those bridge scenes where the guy is shooting a rocket across the map at the guy in the building. If it is, then there won't be any major effects to go with it like destruction physics. I also don't think there will be any massively complex animations as well.

Quote:
Actually they lag behind because that's how they implemented it in one of the more recent patches. It wasn't like that before, and this is the 'fix' Dice gave us for bad hitreg.
It was very similar from before from what I recall. I remember I hated being a sniper because if I hit someone - it'd never do anything to them. And that was back at launch of BC2 because since then I haven't played BC2 at all since then. I can't comment if whether or not it's the same exact thing, but I recall that being a big deal. And if you look in the video comments of that video, he mentions the server location, ping, and people in the game. It makes a difference.
Edited by OmegaNemesis28 - 2/23/11 at 6:47pm
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post #202 of 325
Omega, I think you're missing the point of what Triple is trying to say. Graphical QUALITY has nothing to do with server load. If we're both looking at a building and lets say on my rig I have it rendered at 1920x1080 and all my shaders and AA are set to the max and on your rig you have it rendered at 1600x1050 at medium settings, in the server space we're still looking at the same building. If that building is destroyed and breaks up into 12 pieces, those twelve pieces are tracked by the server and sent to our clients so that in the server space we see the same 12 pieces, but on my rig they are rendered at a higher quality.

Triple is right when he says that server load is in no way affected by graphical quality. I can see where you're argument makes sense. Of course they might tone down the destructibility in MP because that would be a lot of dynamic surfaces that the server would have to track, but the shadows and textures are all rendered on the client so no matter how high a user sets their graphical settings, it won't have an affect on the server.
post #203 of 325
Virtual Viagra!!!
post #204 of 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by CAHOP240 View Post
Omega, I think you're missing the point of what Triple is trying to say. Graphical QUALITY has nothing to do with server load. If we're both looking at a building and lets say on my rig I have it rendered at 1920x1080 and all my shaders and AA are set to the max and on your rig you have it rendered at 1600x1050 at medium settings, in the server space we're still looking at the same building. If that building is destroyed and breaks up into 12 pieces, those twelve pieces are tracked by the server and sent to our clients so that in the server space we see the same 12 pieces, but on my rig they are rendered at a higher quality.

Triple is right when he says that server load is in no way affected by graphical quality. I can see where you're argument makes sense. Of course they might tone down the destructibility in MP because that would be a lot of dynamic surfaces that the server would have to track, but the shadows and textures are all rendered on the client so no matter how high a user sets their graphical settings, it won't have an affect on the server.
NOWHERE did I say anything about resolution and AA being apart of server stress load. LOL Where did anyone get this?

And yes the graphics do affect server load. If you have an elaborately detailed massive singleplay level - you're not getting that level in multiplayer. It's going to be scaled down in size, be limited in assets/detail/effects, and it's going to look much more poorly in comparison.
All of you need to go get yourself a server box, host a Crysis or Crysis Wars instance, and play the game before arguing anymore about this. Sure, the textures and the Nanosuit might look similar to the SP - but the map size, details on the map, graphical effects, animations, and everything else is entirely toned down.
Edited by OmegaNemesis28 - 2/23/11 at 6:53pm
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post #205 of 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaNemesis28 View Post
?
Yes you did. Read what you said. Explain yourself more.

It was very similar from before from what I recall. I remember I hated being a sniper because if I hit someone - it'd never do anything to them. And that was back at launch of BC2 because since then I haven't played BC2 at all.
"I don't see what graphics have to do with servers or destruction" means:

"I don't see what graphics have to do with servers" and "I don't see what graphics have to do with destruction".

It doesn't mean "I don't see what servers have to do with destruction."

No the hitboxes are quite different. There are very long threads on the Dice forums on how horrible or amazing the new hitboxes/hitreg are compared to before. The new ones are always lagging, but easier to predict. The older ones were a bit more unpredictable and would have problems even when the target isn't moving.

edit: as for graphics and servers, I think it's just because we have a different definition of graphics.
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post #206 of 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by thiru View Post
"I don't see what graphics have to do with servers or destruction" means:

"I don't see what graphics have to do with servers" and "I don't see what graphics have to do with destruction".

It doesn't mean "I don't see what servers have to do with destruction."
And I told you - the destruction has EVERYTHING to do with graphics. Are you saying the destruction physics are not apart of the graphics?

Quote:
edit: as for graphics and servers, I think it's just because we have a different definition of graphics.
How is that even remotely possible? Anything you see or hear is apart of the graphics in a game. Desctruction physics are graphics, how could you even say differently.

Quote:
No the hitboxes are quite different. There are very long threads on the Dice forums on how horrible or amazing the new hitboxes/hitreg are compared to before. The new ones are always lagging, but easier to predict. The older ones were a bit more unpredictable and would have problems even when the target isn't moving.
Notice though. Always lagging. Sounds like a server problem to me rather than an engine one.
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post #207 of 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaNemesis28 View Post
NOWHERE did I say anything about resolution and AA being apart of server stress load. LOL Where did anyone get this?

And yes the graphics do affect server load. If you have an elaborately detailed massive singleplay level - you're not getting that level in multiplayer. It's going to be scaled down in size, be limited in assets/detail/effects, and it's going to look much more poorly in comparison.
All of you need to go get yourself a server box, host a Crysis or Crysis Wars instance, and play the game before arguing anymore about this.
You keep saying "they're going to 'tone' down the graphics for MP" and that simply does not add up. If they scale back the "features" of a building or map or the destructibility, thats totally different from scaling back the graphics since that's all rendered on the client. If they take out a couple trees, bushes, vehicles or small buildings from a map so that there are less things to be tracked by a server, that doesn't affect how the remaining items are rendered.
post #208 of 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaNemesis28 View Post
And I told you - the destruction has EVERYTHING to do with graphics. Are you saying the destruction physics are not apart of the graphics?



How is that even remotely possible? Anything you see or hear is apart of the graphics in a game. Desctruction physics are graphics, how could you even say differently.



Notice though. Always lagging. Sounds like a server problem to me rather than an engine one.
Always lagging even when there's only 2 people on the server? doesn't sound like a server problem to me. Bad netcode or prediction or whatever you want to call it.

Well for one what I hear isn't what I call graphics. Two, calculating how an object falls and tumbles isn't graphics for me. Sure it's represented in the game, but if that's how you define graphics then what isn't graphics? seems like a pretty pointless definition to me if it encompasses everything.
To me that processing task is divided into 2: the physics calculations, which have to be sent to everyone (server load), and the graphical representation of the object, which is generated interdependently by each computer (no server load).
Edited by thiru - 2/23/11 at 7:07pm
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post #209 of 325
I want this game so much, I hope it uses Steamworks for I can join my friend's in game easier and such.
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post #210 of 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by CAHOP240 View Post
You keep saying "they're going to 'tone' down the graphics for MP" and that simply does not add up. If they scale back the "features" of a building or map or the destructibility, thats totally different from scaling back the graphics since that's all rendered on the client. If they take out a couple trees, bushes, vehicles or small buildings from a map so that there are less things to be tracked by a server, that doesn't affect how the remaining items are rendered.
Ok - would you not say that Crysis looks amazing especially when you're in the jungle surrounded by super detailed vegetation and destructible trees?

Lets remove EVERYTHING - grass, trees, bushes and make it so it's just you and a lone single palm tree. The tree still looks the same but the graphics are terrible. You're better off playing pong to get more eye candy.

Watch the trailer again and look at the highway he looks down at with the big explosion. There is so many different props down there. The streetlights, the tiles from the sidewalk, and tons of other stuff. Remove all of those - and you've got yourself a pretty lame ass looking scene. The graphics would be terrible. Everything would be flat and empty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thiru View Post
Always lagging even when there's only 2 people on the server? doesn't sound like a server problem to me. Bad netcode or prediction or whatever you want to call it.
That further supports what I'm saying because theres only 2 people in the server. The game is so stressful on the server, it can't keep up with even two people yet alone a full load.
Lag can happen when no one is on a server. Just because no one is in it doesn't mean that it isn't still turned on and running. It isn't a tree in a forest.

Quote:
Well for one what I hear isn't what I call graphics. Two, calculating how an object falls and tumbles isn't graphics. Sure it's represented in the game, but if that's how you define graphics then what isn't graphics? seems like a pretty pointless definition to me if it encompasses everything.
To me that processing task is divided into 2: the physics calculations, which have to be sent to everyone (server load), and the graphical representation of the object, which is generated interdependently by each computer (no server load).
Did you not read anything I said?
Ok let's go back to hitboxes.

If you have a complex, detailed, and gorgeous character model - how does its hitbox look? Is it simple or does it match the complex character model? The graphics representation has direct connection to the physics in this case.

If you blow up a building - how detailed is it? Do 40 pieces go scattering? or just a twig or two and a bunch of smoke? Direct connection. 40 pieces scattering is good graphics. A twig is not.

Physics are apart of the graphics. How does water react when you shoot it or when you throw something in it? It's graphics no matter how you twist or turn it. There's no opinion to be had.
Edited by OmegaNemesis28 - 2/23/11 at 7:19pm
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Dell U2311H 1920x1080 IPS Dell U2311H 1920x1080 IPS Ducky Blue Overclock.net Themed Mechanical Keyb... Corsair Silver 1kw  
CaseMouseAudio
Case Labs TH10 Logitech G502 Logitech 5.1 speakers w/ Onkyo Receiver 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Xeon W3520 i7 4.0ghz EVGA X58 Classified Visiontek 6990 GSkill 6GB DDR3 Pi 
Hard DriveOptical DriveOSMonitor
2x OCZ Vertex 60GB SSD ; 2x 1TB ; 2x 2TB Samsung BluRay Burner Windows 7 Ultimate 64x 3x Dell U2311H 23" 1080p IPS 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Logitech G15 Gaming Keyboard SilverStone Strider 1000w Modular Power Supply Lian Li V2000 Plus Logitech G9 Gaming Laser Mouse 
Mouse Pad
Cyba Sniper Tracer (Acrylic Glass) 
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