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Allow me to ask a English word about water cooling - Page 3

post #21 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by levontraut View Post
dude.... i tell you what... if you do not know water cooling or refrigeration stay out and keep your words to yourself.



only on big systems do you need the extra pump to help with circulation.....
the compressor will do it just fine on a refrigeration circute

as in coolant leaking.... how is that going to kill you... you can drink it with horible stumack pains and loads of bowl movements but it will not kill you.



To the OP... dude.... it is going to be very costly.... i hope you do it to learn about refrigeration and how it works... it is a nice project to do phase change or chillers or what ever it is going to be....

advice or take note... what ever you do in that aspect be prepaird for the huge power bill and noise level... but expect lovely returns in temps and OCing
Dude if you don't know chiller systems then you shouldn't comment.

The OP asked for a machine to cool his coolant - that would be a water cooled chiller, which has separate water and refrigerant loops. You need a water pump for the water loop and a compressor for the refrigerant.

Refrigerant leaks are the danger not coolant (I admit that was a typo on my other post). If you have a leak in a coolant circuit you can instantly freeze anything exposed to the leak - which can result in severe tissue damage to anything exposed. I'm not talking getting a bit cold here - I'm talking actual burns to the flesh that is completely irreversable and often results in amputation. If you aren't aware of these risks you shouldn't go near a chiller circuit.

This is not a project to play with - chillers can be dangerous if you don't know what you're doing.
post #22 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_beast View Post
and:

- the cost of a chiller is much higher than a simple radiator

- there is actually limited benefit unless you want massive overclocks

- the risks are much higher to your system (condensation etc)

- the risks to the user are much higher (coolant leaks can be VERY dangerous - you could lose a limb or be blinded)

- the noise levels are much higher - a compressor is much noisier than a pump (and you still need the pump to circulate the water)

- the system requires much more maintenance than a simple water loop

need I go on? I work with chillers on a daily basis, and they aren't something to take on lightly...

VERY GOOD Pros and Cons explanations
post #23 of 26
to levontraut,

yes, what the_beast said is true. there are two independent loops WITHIN the chiller, one for refrigerant and the other for watercooling computer

Refrigerant leaks are dangerous.

though chillers are dangerous, they are not such dangerous as the_beast said.....

just make sure what u r doing, OP
Edited by analysts - 3/30/11 at 11:36am
post #24 of 26
Chillers definitely are not as dangerous as people here make it sound. I was in the aquarium hobby for a long time before coming here to this forum, and learned a lot about chillers since I'm in FL where they're effectively required to run any serious aquarium setup.

I've never heard of anyone getting burned in a chiller accident in all my years of using chillers and being part of the largest community on the internet dedicated to aquariums (it's one of the 5 or 10 largest online forums world-wide), so I don't think that's a consideration.

A big consideration is that as was mentioned before, they're designed to cycle on and off, and while they do work running on 24/7, the compressor will still stop running to cool down if need be, even if there is still demand on the system. For you to effectively use a chiller, again as has been mentioned, you would need a sort of gas compression and expansion system, or some system to hold the negative heat in in short bursts and deliver it to the computer at a lower heat capacity for longer periods of time (including the down times of the on/off cycle of the compressor).

Refrigerant leaks are not a big deal, and it's part of using a chiller. If you live in a tiny sealed up apartment with no air leakage to the outside, then sure, it might be a consideration, but the reality is that they do leak over time, and will eventually have to be refilled. When I was in the aquarium hobby, people had more problems with their aquariums consuming oxygen and releasing CO2 too fast in their house, giving them headaches and whatnot. I had heard of that a few times, but people ill from inhaling chiller leakage? Never. With literally tens of thousands of people using chillers on the forum, some 24/7, some seasonally.

The point of a radiator-based system as we often do is that we're using the heat capacity of the inside of our house, and our home's HVAC system to do what it was designed to do, take out massive amounts of heat at a time out of the air, then cycle off. It works great with a compressor, as that's what it's designed to do. Running a compressor with a direct chilling loop will kill your compressor quickly (often reducing its effectiveness, leading to leaks, or just breaking the unit).

If you want to explore chillers, just use one of those setups that have been around in PCs for a very long time, the chiller whose loop and sole design is that of cooling your CPU. After some googling, I found what I was looking for. The "Vapochiller." For what it's worth, a few review sites found out that supercooling the new SandyBridge chips yields negative results, as the processors will not OC as much being super cold versus room temperature.

Sorry for the long-winded response, but just trying to be helpful!
post #25 of 26
A slow refrigerant gas leak over time is not really an issue, especially as modern refirgerants (such 407C) are not bad for the environment or particularly toxic. But I can't agree that they aren't dangerous - a refrigeration leak that vents high pressure refrigerant to atmospheric pressures results in a high pressure flow at sub zero temperatures - and they cause burns that can result in serious burns to any flesh that gets in the way. And I have seen the aftermath of such injuries - they really aren't pretty, and the consequences can be serious. Now if you buy a ready made system then the risks are somewhat minimised, but if you mess with the system then you can have issues (especially if you don't know what you're doing) and the consequences can be serious. So serious in fact that many chiller systems require statutory inspections (in the UK at least (and this depends on the capacity, and as such doesn't include aqarium systems but the fact that larger chiller systems require inspections should raise alarm bells)).

Regarding aquariums - they aren't really relevant. The chiller requirements to cool a cpu giving out a constant 150W+ are way above that required to keep a fish tank slightly below ambient, which might actually require a chiller load of only a few watts.
post #26 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_beast View Post
So serious in fact that many chiller systems require statutory inspections (in the UK at least (and this depends on the capacity, and as such doesn't include aqarium systems but the fact that larger chiller systems require inspections should raise alarm bells)).

Regarding aquariums - they aren't really relevant. The chiller requirements to cool a cpu giving out a constant 150W+ are way above that required to keep a fish tank slightly below ambient, which might actually require a chiller load of only a few watts.
I agree with your points, but here in the US compressor-based chiller systems are unregulated as far as I've ever experienced (1/5hp up to 1 ton). You can tell because some of the units being sold used are decades old and hardly working. My unit was about 8-10 years old by the time I sold it, and nobody batted an eye at buying it nor regulating it.

Aquariums are VERY relevant, I promise you. Any chiller system that you'll see available for this hobby and many others are either from aquarium chiller designs, or have been adapted to aquarium chillers. Someone posted a link earlier, and that unit was exactly an aquarium chiller just modified to keep the temperature low.

The reason that it is relevant is that in an aquarium you're running a series of lights over a reef tank, which is giving off between 250w all the way up to 3kw or so. These lights don't transfer 100% of their heat into the tank, but you also usually have 4-6 pumps each running at 15-50w as well, main circulation pumps giving off 150w. All of that is cooled by the tank water. There is some temperature decrease from evaporation, but it's very minor. Most of the cooling comes from the chiller.

I understand your point from your perspective, but I have to disagree seeing what I've seen and doing what I've done in regards to chilling 150+ gallons of water with ~1kw of lights, and 300w of pumps with no cooling other than dumping it into the tank.

The only difference in my mind is the period of time that the heat is being produced. On a CPU it's 24/7, where on a tank it's 8-10 hours a day, which is why I think that a mediary heatsink/storage system would be necessary to effectively use a chiller, as they will shut off their compressor during normal duty cycles.
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