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post #41 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post
You're doing the same thing that I do with Arch with Windows. I may be a little guilty on the whole Arch thing, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

I can't remember the last time it took me 2 hours to install Windows. It must have been on XP with my old 478 Celeron. Even getting XP to run in virtualbox, which involved a full installation, upgrading it from SP1 to SP3 and installing all of the VMWare drivers took around an hour from inserting my XP home disc to watching Mythbusters on Netflix.

For simple things like browsing the web and checking email, yea its easier in Linux.

But what about things like wireless? Even with Ubuntu it can be a pain.

Or how about sound? Assuming your soundcard even works right, you're probably missing basic codecs like MP3, so you have to track down the appropriate plugin for your distro. In Windows it all works correctly right away, and for the few codecs than don't work you have the k-lite codec pack, which in one click gives you everything.

Its even worse if you want to watch live TV. In Windows 7 you simply have to start Media Center and provide your location information so it can download the program guide, but in Linux with programs like MythTV you have to mess around with MySQL databases.

And how about multi-monitor support? It varies by video card, but with nVidia if you want to add/configure a second monitor you need to write the changes to a separate xorg.conf and then open up a terminal and sudo cp it to /etc/X11 and then restart X. In Windows that stuff just works, no restarts required. It also works with 3 monitors, whereas in Linux the third monitor has to run it's own X server, which totally messes with the DE.

Linux also fails when it comes to presentations. Getting slides to display properly when connected to a projector is damn near impossible.

And then there is RAID support. fakeraid doesn't work out of the box on any distro I know of, yet it works perfectly on Windows.


All of this is just my own personal experiences, and they are the main reasons why I still use Windows on my desktop. I haven't booted into Windows on my laptop for well over a month, but thats because I mainly use it for work. As an actual "personal computer" though, Linux can't compete with Windows.
Yeah you do have a point I forget that I've always had a windows pc in addition to Linux so I've always just left that stuff for windows and used Linux for word processing, web browsing, email etc.
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post #42 of 61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by transhour View Post
i mean i can spend all day writing long diatribes on how windows has introduced mediocre for the last 20 years, with little to no innovation, stinting the growth of far more advanced and powerful, or even cheaper, less power hungry hardware architectures, in favor of continued support only for the slow, outdated and bloated x86 instruction set...then i can set here, and compare each version of windows, explaining in great deal, offering proof, how windows has duped us into buying the same OS for the last 20 years...but i'm honestly sick and tired of these constant why windows is better or why linux is better type of threads.

Yea the amount of backwards compatibility that Windows maintains is a little appalling. The average user side of me appreciates it, while the programmer side of me rages at all of the useless crap I have to include. It takes around 200 lines of code just to open a window and render a triangle with DirectX 11 (not counting hlsl) and the WinAPI, while I can achieve the same effect using OpenGL and SDL/glut/Qt in under 100.

I was really hoping that with the announcement of ARM support for Windows 8 they would be doing a kernel rewrite, but it seems all they are doing is porting the bloated NT kernel. Why they would want 20 years of backwards compatibility on an OS that won't run any non-Windows 8 programs is beyond my understanding.
Edited by nathris - 3/9/11 at 6:29pm
    
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post #43 of 61
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Originally Posted by nathris View Post
You're doing the same thing that I do with Arch with Windows. I may be a little guilty on the whole Arch thing, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.

I can't remember the last time it took me 2 hours to install Windows. It must have been on XP with my old 478 Celeron. Even getting XP to run in virtualbox, which involved a full installation, upgrading it from SP1 to SP3 and installing all of the VMWare drivers took around an hour from inserting my XP home disc to watching Mythbusters on Netflix.

For simple things like browsing the web and checking email, yea its easier in Linux.

But what about things like wireless? Even with Ubuntu it can be a pain.

Or how about sound? Assuming your soundcard even works right, you're probably missing basic codecs like MP3, so you have to track down the appropriate plugin for your distro. In Windows it all works correctly right away, and for the few codecs than don't work you have the k-lite codec pack, which in one click gives you everything.

Its even worse if you want to watch live TV. In Windows 7 you simply have to start Media Center and provide your location information so it can download the program guide, but in Linux with programs like MythTV you have to mess around with MySQL databases.

And how about multi-monitor support? It varies by video card, but with nVidia if you want to add/configure a second monitor you need to write the changes to a separate xorg.conf and then open up a terminal and sudo cp it to /etc/X11 and then restart X. In Windows that stuff just works, no restarts required. It also works with 3 monitors, whereas in Linux the third monitor has to run it's own X server, which totally messes with the DE.

Linux also fails when it comes to presentations. Getting slides to display properly when connected to a projector is damn near impossible.

And then there is RAID support. fakeraid doesn't work out of the box on any distro I know of, yet it works perfectly on Windows.


All of this is just my own personal experiences, and they are the main reasons why I still use Windows on my desktop. I haven't booted into Windows on my laptop for well over a month, but thats because I mainly use it for work. As an actual "personal computer" though, Linux can't compete with Windows.
A lot of this stuff seems to be very "I had this problem, so everyone will" based.

On Arch, yes, installs take a long time because you configure everything yourself, but a lot of the issues you have are ones that I've never had on Ubuntu...My WiFi card was supported out of the box, as was WPA2 (Arch took a bit of configuration but it works great now) and sound? Add Medibuntu repo or just use Mint, hell, in Arch I can get OSS4 working in less time than it takes me to get my audio drivers installed on Windows and multiple monitors is all done for you in Ubuntu, I had two screens working practically straight after I rebooted with official nVidia drivers installed, plus fakeraid works on Intel, nVidia, etc iirc, just not so well on AMD, although it picked up my motherboard RAID straight away and that was Arch Linux.

TV stuff is true though, but to say Linux doesn't work as a personal computer is completely wrong, it may not for you or many others but it can still compete, case in point, two of the games I can play perfectly on Linux won't work on a version of Windows newer than XP. (Gearhead Garage and RCT)
    
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post #44 of 61
Thread Starter 
I never said linux doesn't work as a personal computer. I just said it doesn't work as well.

You can say "oh but if you install this or do that then it works", and while thats true, its inconvenient.


I've had to give up my TV tuner, my third monitor, and I'm forced to play TF2 in a window because wine treats both my monitors as a single large monitor. Thats damned inconvenient, and TBH if I didn't have a ton of programming work to do I'd be back in Windows right now.

While that may just be my own personal experience, I'm far from alone in this regard.
    
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post #45 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post
I can't remember the last time it took me 2 hours to install Windows. It must have been on XP with my old 478 Celeron. Even getting XP to run in virtualbox, which involved a full installation, upgrading it from SP1 to SP3 and installing all of the VMWare drivers took around an hour from inserting my XP home disc to watching Mythbusters on Netflix.
It takes me about a day to setup Windows 7 with all the software I like. It takes me about 2 days to setup Arch with all the software I like. Honestly, if it doesn't take you a while to download/install all the right software, you probably don't use your PC for much or don't know what's best suited for your own needs. As for the netflix thing; like I said, lack of commercial support. If Windows had the marketshare of Linux would it support netflix? God no. The fact that you can even get it working in a VM is miraculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post
But what about things like wireless? Even with Ubuntu it can be a pain.
Linux has been making great strides with this recently. Broadcom which is notoriously terrible driver-wise is now releasing open source drivers and you can get some of the absolute oldest and obscure drivers working with nspluginwrapper. Again, this is lack of commercial support. I could easily argue that Windows doesn't support very old wireless drivers that linux does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post
Or how about sound? Assuming your soundcard even works right, you're probably missing basic codecs like MP3, so you have to track down the appropriate plugin for your distro. In Windows it all works correctly right away, and for the few codecs than don't work you have the k-lite codec pack, which in one click gives you everything.
ALSA/OSS have never failed me once. Even Creative cards that are notorious for being poorly supported on Linux, I haven't had issues. As for the codec pack garbage. Gstreamer comes with most distros. I have no clue what you're complaining about. Also, CCCP > K-Lite when it comes to Windows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post
And how about multi-monitor support? It varies by video card, but with nVidia if you want to add/configure a second monitor you need to write the changes to a separate xorg.conf and then open up a terminal and sudo cp it to /etc/X11 and then restart X. In Windows that stuff just works, no restarts required. It also works with 3 monitors, whereas in Linux the third monitor has to run it's own X server, which totally messes with the DE.
The nVidia auto X.org configuration tool directly replaces your xorg.conf (if you even want to run with an xorg.conf). As for multimonitor support--that comes strongly down to the WM/DE. Also Windows multimonitor support is by no means flawless and they only have one DE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post
Linux also fails when it comes to presentations. Getting slides to display properly when connected to a projector is damn near impossible.
Never had an issue on any OS with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post
And then there is RAID support. fakeraid doesn't work out of the box on any distro I know of, yet it works perfectly on Windows.
This probably comes down to philosophy. Linux has long had it's own software raid well before fakeraid was being used. Either way it comes down to an "out-of-box" thing, so I'd complain at the distro maintainers for whatever you're using.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post
You can say "oh but if you install this or do that then it works", and while thats true, its inconvenient.
The GNU/Linux OS is modularized to hell. Everything is in pieces so you can customize it. That's the point. If you don't like the default "Paint tool" replace it with what you want. A strong point to Linux is the customization and yet you're saying it's inconvenient to not be using someone else's presets for all your applications? Looks like there's just a major philosophy difference between your idea of an ideal OS and what GNU/Linux is. Also, installing software is easier on Linux than it is on Windows, and I personally install lots of third party programs on Windows, so there's just no logic from your statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post
I've had to give up my TV tuner, my third monitor, and I'm forced to play TF2 in a window because wine treats both my monitors as a single large monitor. Thats damned inconvenient, and TBH if I didn't have a ton of programming work to do I'd be back in Windows right now.
I don't have any experience with TV tuners which is why I didn't comment on it before. As for the Wine/TF2, how can you complain? Be happy you can even get TF2 to run on a different OS then it was developed for. Multimonitor support combined with full screen games still have issues on Windows and you're complaining about it on Linux?
Edited by Jimi - 3/10/11 at 1:24am
post #46 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by transhour View Post
if we all can, do you think we can swing this discussion to ubuntu current decision to use unity instead of gnome? as we are all very well aware of linux weakness, its strengths, and those of windows...
Amen to that!

With this move, Ubuntu will lose a lot of hardcore followers, and gain a few noobs who don't know any better (didn't know Gnome before 3). I don't see how Mint can 'go it alone', as their downstream from Ubuntu, and Gnome themselves aren't developing Metacity anymore
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post #47 of 61
is there a petition online anywhere yet to make these devs stop ruining their stuff?

ill probably never touch gnome or ubuntu again unless its just to rip ubuntu apart and throw openbox on it
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post #48 of 61
Hey, totally stupid question here; but they're not talking about dropping Mint and the other DE variants right? (I know Mint's separate). Because you guys make it sound like they're only going to maintain the uunity based Ubuntu. If that's the case then I'm definitely going to be upset.
     
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post #49 of 61
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Originally Posted by Rookie1337 View Post
Hey, totally stupid question here; but they're not talking about dropping Mint and the other DE variants right? (I know Mint's separate). Because you guys make it sound like they're only going to maintain the uunity based Ubuntu. If that's the case then I'm definitely going to be upset.
they probably wont, but you have to think about the project as a whole...

if unity completely tanks, which there is a very high chance it will... the whole ubuntu project will lose steam, lose support, and so it will lose its strong user base... the gnome version of ubuntu is what people wanted when they got ubuntu, its the main branch and the one that gets the most focus and attention BY FAR

id be willing to take a random stab and say that its probably over 90% of ubuntu users that use the gnome edition now, and it will probably lose a solid 30% because of the switch to unity, and then another 5% might switch over to other flavors of ubuntu

with the hit most people are expecting ubuntu to take, its gonna hurt EVERYTHING ubuntu, every down stream distro, every flavor

time to for the kids to swim up stream to the good ol debian
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post #50 of 61
If it drags Kubuntu down I guess I'll have to move to openSUSE for my easy distro and Slackware for my favorite. Just a shame since I finally got KDE 4.6 and as transhour puts it, "WIN7 is a mistake compared to it".
     
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Optical DriveCoolingOSOS
LG 8X BDR (WHL08S20) Cooler Master Hyper 212+ Kubuntu x64 Windows 7 x64 
OSMonitorPowerCase
Bodhi Linux x64 Acer G215H (1920x1080) Seasonic 520 HAF912 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
N450 1.8GHz AC and 1.66GHz batt ASUS proprietary for 1001P GMA3150 (can play bluray now!?) 1GB DDR2 
Hard DriveOptical DriveOSOS
160GB LGLHDLBDRE32X Bodhi Linux Fedora LXDE 
OSOSMonitorKeyboard
Kubuntu SLAX 1280x600 + Dell 15inch Excellent! 
PowerCase
6 cells=6-12hrs and a charger 1001P MU17 Black 
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