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post #61 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by EntTheGod View Post
just because root has access and owns everything and can do pretty much anything doesnt mean its part of the OS

i could make another user account with about the same function if i really wanted to... it wont do a lot of the scripted stuff thats hard coded to use the root account in one way or another, but thats just because the code is referencing the user root or the specific user id for root

having a user with highly elevated permissions doesnt make it no longer a user account, it just makes it a user account you should use sparsely
When you create a "root" account, you create the account with IDs 0/0. This is the same ID the system uses, 0/0 (I'm not going into full ID numbers). So, why is this important. When you "ask" to run a command, the system checks the IDs being associated with this request. If the IDs match that of the system it is told to assume that it is an internal request. It doesn't know there are two different IDs with 0/0, how can it know? You don't have a sub-root ID, you have a user ID and a group ID and that's it. So when the request gets approved it then runs that process with the associated IDs. It runs them as "root", since 0/0 is the system IDs it gets run at the same level as the system with no way to interpret the true IDs (an externel request). That is why Root is dangerous, because the system can't tell the difference.

[edit] This is how black and white security runs, we don't have users with special privlidges yet. We have users and the system, that's it. You have to stop thinking about commands as externel processes being run, they aren't. When you run a command you actually ask the system to do so every time, it allows or denies you based off your IDs. If these IDs corrispond with the system than it doesn't know the difference, it thinks it is asking it self (what it does every time it forks a new process) to run a command. Internel process queries are all done this way. Honestly the only way you know this is if you get heavy into system management and code management, most people don't know that every time a process is forked it "asks" to do so just like you ask to run a command. [edit] This is somewhat wrong, some internal processes are forked without asking. That's how a multi-thread system works, but that's not the case for a lot of the system internals. Linux is built off CLI, so a lot of processes are external commands that are run (completely new threads and processes).
Edited by mushroomboy - 3/10/11 at 10:34am
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post #62 of 66
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yes, we understand root is REALLY integrated into the coding...

but its still a user account, root itself is not the operating system... if you really wanted a base linux system, you could have JUST the root account, and taht could be your main user account for everything if you so choose

the reason we dont do that is security reasons, you dont even need a hacker to break your system, all it takes is a typo while your running root and you can break your own system

we run low privileged accounts to reduce risk of user error, and to keep program security as high as possible

root is a special user account thats quite integrated but its still just a user account, not the os!

you need at least one constant user account on the system all the time to have scripting and automated stuff and all that working, you need at least one user account for an actually usable system... thats why root is a constant, and thats why its so integrated and special... but its still NOT THE OS
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post #63 of 66
the thing is we haven't designed a way to differ from what the system owns and what Root owns. In linux a file owned by root is also owned by the system, they are one and the same. When the system shares so much with an account how do you say where the user account stops and a "system account" begins? IMO you can't, they are the same thing. We can use the account for user input but the system is now so dependent on "root" that the account is a part of the system.
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post #64 of 66
Interesting to see what happens if you remove root (if it's even permitted??)...does the system throw a kernel panic on boot? Or does it just fail when it tries to fire up the shell?
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post #65 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by chemicalfan View Post
Interesting to see what happens if you remove root (if it's even permitted??)...does the system throw a kernel panic on boot? Or does it just fail when it tries to fire up the shell?
Try to remove zero from the universe and see if the universe continues to work. My guess is it will panic and crash, taking all of us along with it.

This whole debate has devolved into too many semantic arguments which mean little in the real world, or even the world inside a computer. Or, why complicate something simple?
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post #66 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by error10 View Post
Try to remove zero from the universe and see if the universe continues to work. My guess is it will panic and crash, taking all of us along with it.

This whole debate has devolved into too many semantic arguments which mean little in the real world, or even the world inside a computer. Or, why complicate something simple?
i think it would be easier to remove 0 from the universe, than to ask for simplicity on OCN
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