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[Various] Japan Nuclear Emergency - Continuous Coverage of Damage and Radiation Risks - Page 50  

post #491 of 2836
well 8-ball has it, we already know everything there is to know and obviously, taking care of an unstable nuclear core doesn't get fixed in one day hence why i find this quote every revealing
"Most importantly, remember that very little information is actually known. Media organizations get scraps and tidbits, and these are recycled endlessly"

also damric, would you happen to have good reading about chernobyl case for me?
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post #492 of 2836
I think it is very easy for the intelligent OCN crowd to understand basically how nuclear power works since it has many of the same concepts of water cooling when it comes to heat exchange.

To typical person I explain nuclear power like this: Hot Rock -> makes steam -> turbine goes roundy roundy.

But you all can understand it more since you know about closed loop heat exchangers. Just think of the fuel as the processor, the fuel plate cladding is metal (not copper, but aluminum-zirconium alloy) much like the heat sink on a processor. Water flows through the plates in highly engineered channels, much like a waterblock. This water is pumped by centrifugal pumps, just like your swiftech, but on a more rugged and grand scale. Instead of a radiator that is air cooled, the water exchanges heat with a boiler (with a seconday loop of water). In this heat exchange in the boiler the primary water flows through very tiny, flat tubes, exchanging heat with the seconday loop's boiler water that flows around these tubes (instead of air passing a radiator's fins).


Quote:
also damric, would you happen to have good reading about chernobyl case for me?
I'm not sure. The one I read was classified Confidential (a low classification). I would bet I can find you something on the internet unclassified with 99% of the same info as in the classified version. It's quite an interesting read. They used helicopters to dump sand on the fire and the pilots would get sick in less than a minute and crash.
Edited by damric - 3/12/11 at 6:30pm
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post #493 of 2836
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lampen View Post
Just letting the people who are further into the thread know that the OP has been updated. I've been doing it all day since this all started and figured it's easiest to continue what I've been doing up until now.
Thanks for the continuous updates Lampen, it's appreciated

Quote:
Originally Posted by molino View Post
well 8-ball has it, we already know everything there is to know and obviously, taking care of an unstable nuclear core doesn't get fixed in one day hence why i find this quote every revealing
"Most importantly, remember that very little information is actually known. Media organizations get scraps and tidbits, and these are recycled endlessly"

also damric, would you happen to have good reading about chernobyl case for me?
I'd like a good read too if it's not too hard.
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post #494 of 2836
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shnur View Post
Thanks for the continuous updates Lampen, it's appreciated
You're welcome

Quote:
I'd like a good read too if it's not too hard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by molino View Post
well 8-ball has it, we already know everything there is to know and obviously, taking care of an unstable nuclear core doesn't get fixed in one day hence why i find this quote every revealing
"Most importantly, remember that very little information is actually known. Media organizations get scraps and tidbits, and these are recycled endlessly"

also damric, would you happen to have good reading about chernobyl case for me?
These are the two I've read and I really enjoyed them:

Chernobyl Record: The Definitive History of the Chernobyl Catastrophe by Richard F. Mould



Voices from Chernobyl: The Oral History of a Nuclear Disaster by Svetlana Alexievich and Keith Gessen


Edited by Lampen - 3/12/11 at 6:30pm
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post #495 of 2836
wikipedia is a good start, though it doesn't contain the engineering layout of the plant (probably the classified part).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernob...re_containment
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post #496 of 2836
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8-Ball View Post
Same.

The Seawater issue seems like a very desperate attempt.

I have little knowledge on how the coolant works, but seawater seems very desperate.
Water, for the most part, is water. Nothing really has higher specific heat capacity, so there really isn't a better coolant.

Also, you have to remember that the infrastructure in the area in in shambles, so even if there was a superior alternative, they wouldn't be able to easily get it to the reactors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tizmo View Post
Just something I thought about, since they are using sea water to try and cool down the reactors, what happens if small pieces of debris come in contact? Surely they are using filters etc, but what about very small particles?
Nothing.

Raw sewage would work almost as well, as long as it's mostly water and they put a moderator in it. Contamination of the reactor is not an issue, it's already been severely damage and will need an overhaul anyway. The reactor contaminating the water and what to do with the waste is a much bigger deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FellsPoint View Post
guys im scared. wut would this mean for the East coast of the US if this does happen?
Wall Street panic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xd_1771 View Post
Perhaps we should discuss the possible consequences.
1. Multiple meltdowns = nuclear winter, definitely
2. A single meltdown could/would screw the west coast of N. America
Those consequences are not remotely possible. The first one is especially ludicrous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by damric View Post
Even if the fuel plates 100% meltdown, it's not going to be like Chernobyl.

These reactors use U-235 for fuel, a slow, thermal fission fuel. It does not explode like U-238, a fast fission fuel. U-235 absorbs a slow, thermal neutron, then fissions. It needs water to slow down fast neutrons (moderator) into thermal neutrons. Fast neutrons bounce off U-235 nucleus like a ping-pong ball hitting a bowling ball.

Now when I say melt down, that means each alloyed fuel plate blisters and allows fission fragments to enter the cooling water. This contaminated water can be poisoned with boron-tetraflouride pellets to keep further fission from occurring. The shutdown-cooldown process pretty rapid. Natural decay of these fission products is logarithmic. Example: a navy reactor compartment is safe to enter after just a few hours. I would expect these reactors to have safe enough radiation levels to allow repairs after about a week. The longest lived byproduct being cobalt-60.
The more sensible of us appreciate the insight, but I'm afraid most people find impossible comic book level doomsday scenarios more appealing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XNine View Post
I just want to be clear here, (and no, I'm no nuclear power expert, far from it) that because of the actual fuel used to power the reactors, we're not looking at a large-scale explosion, however we could be looking at land/water contamination should it leak out, correct? Or would it be insignificant?
An atomic explosion is impossible, as in you couldn't make one happen with the materials in a fission plant if you tried. Just not enriched enough.
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post #497 of 2836
Found this: a very simplified drawing of chernobyl plant.



The classified schematic I saw must have had a thousand little coolant loops, quite the engineering nightmare.
Edited by damric - 3/12/11 at 6:43pm
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post #498 of 2836

Here is a Documentry about the Chernobyl plant. Shows scientist actually going inside the sarcophagus after the accident and stuff. Its broken into 5 parts.

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post #499 of 2836
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless View Post
An atomic explosion is impossible, as in you couldn't make one happen with the materials in a fission plant if you tried. Just not enriched enough.
Need some more Neutrons for you Uranium cocktail

Always surprises me when people dont realize that the heat capacity of water is very good. I mean has no1 boiled a kettle, takes the piss

Off topic : my old man builds generators XD (or at least makes sure that they are getting built properly), however most of them go to china or the US (General Electric).

Since we have a man in the know, where are we with fusion ? (damric)
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post #500 of 2836
The Monticello reactor in Minnesota is the same type of GE BWR-3 that is used in Fukushima I: http://www.nucleartourist.com/us/monti.htm

Buildings are a bit different, but the diagrams of the reactor itself should be nearly identical to the one that has had the largest issues in Japan.
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Technology and Science News › [Various] Japan Nuclear Emergency - Continuous Coverage of Damage and Radiation Risks