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[XBIT] AMD Aims to Fight Core i7 “Sandy Bridge” with Bulldozer. - Page 28

post #271 of 300
yeah but you said and I reiterate


'Originally Posted by born2bwild
AMD has always had higher clocks, more cores and more L2 cache compared to Intel and it hasn't stopped it from making poorer chips.'


has being past tense
and always is finite

You good sir had just gotten an education about AMD.


Quote:
Originally Posted by born2bwild


Well if you had read my second post, you would have noticed I was referring to Phenom IIs in which case they do have more cores, higher clocks and more L2 caches, but perform worse than Intel CPUs in most cases.

I also pointed out that smaller manufacturing process in no way guarantees the fantastic 5+ Ghz for 24/7 use we've seen with SB.

Now, I'm not saying Bulldozer won't outperform SB (maybe it will, maybe it won't), I'm just pointing out some AMD fans are making outlandish statements (such as BD will "bulldoze" SB, it will overclock more, it will perform much better) with no proof and I'm showing that these claims have no basis.

(outlandish claim pointed out in red at top of page)

But you just made one also, which you got pulled up on.
__________________
Edited by smash_mouth01 - 3/22/11 at 3:44pm
post #272 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by smash_mouth01 View Post
yeah but you said and I reiterate


'Originally Posted by born2bwild
AMD has always had higher clocks, more cores and more L2 cache compared to Intel and it hasn't stopped it from making poorer chips.'


has being past tense
and always is finite

You good sir had just gotten an education about AMD.
First of all, I was referring to the technology AMD has had for the past 3-5 years.
I corrected my self almost immediately. I apologize if my incorrect wording (though it was incorrect, that I admit) confused you. but my point stands very strong.

AMD's past CPUs (referring to the Phenom IIs) have had more cores, higher clocks and more L2 cache, but they didn't perform better than i7 and quad i5s. Architecture matters, that's what I'm saying. People can't just look at the L2 caches, the frequency, the number of cores and say, "this will crush SB."

I have not learned anything new from this thread, unfortunately. I did know that in the first part of the 2000s, AMD had the lower clocks, overall better CPUs, and I even remember there being a controversy about high Intel CPU clocks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smash_mouth01 View Post
(outlandish claim pointed out in red at top of page)
My intention was not to make an incorrect or outlandish claim. I made a very clear and valid point, and simply expressed it incorrectly initially (I even corrected it a post later, however, you conveniently forgot to refer to that). I generally do not like editing my posts, but if it is bothering you so much, I will.
Edited by born2bwild - 3/22/11 at 3:52pm
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post #273 of 300
Be careful lol, people here at OCN, including myself, love to attack someone over the silliest mistakes
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post #274 of 300
tbh i dont really care about the High end cpus.. im not rich..
i wish i had one yes.
will i get one? 99.999999999% no.

i hope someone brings out a decent ocing quad core... not just non ocable i3/i5s
oh well im still on 775 haha wait for a decent upgrade path for me and my faily slim budget.
    
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post #275 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by born2bwild View Post
AMD's past CPUs (referring to the Phenom IIs) have had more cores, higher clocks and more L2 cache, but they didn't perform better than i7 and quad i5s. Architecture matters, that's what I'm saying. People can't just look at the L2 caches, the frequency, the number of cores and say, "this will crush SB."
How do you figure that about the phenomII's

ok you have the

dual
tri
quad
and hex

Intel have all those, so core count doesn stand for much.

Amd phenom II have 6 MB L3 shared 8MB total
but guess what

Intel



i7 950,960,970
8MB shared

980,990
12MB

then we have the i3,i5
4 MB

then we have 1155


Intel Core i5 2300
Intel Core i5 2400
Intel Core i5 2500
Intel Core i5 2500K

6MB L3, assumed 8MB total


Intel Core i7 2600
Intel Core i7 2600K

8MB L3, assumed 12MB total


so the point is.
post #276 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by smash_mouth01 View Post
How do you figure that about the phenomII's.
See, this is denial, you're just convincing yourself that you're not seeing a lucid fact that's right in front of you;

I'll take two high-end processors from both companies;

The Intel i7 960 vs AMD PII 1100T

Price: $290 vs $220
Cores: 4 vs 6 More cores. Check.
Non-Turbo Frequency: 3.2Ghz vs 3.3 Ghz Higher CPU freq.
Turbo Frequency: 3.46Ghz vs 3.7 Ghz Check.
Manufacturing Tech: 45nm vs 45nm
L2 Cache: 4 x 256KB vs 6 x 512KB More L2 Cache. Check.

Performance* (winner underlined):

Sysmark Overall: 238 vs 204
Adobe Photoshop CS4 Bench - Retouch: 15.0s vs 18.4
DivX 6.8.5 Encode (Xmpeg 5.0.3): 32.3s vs 35.5s
x264 encode, 1st pass: 85.8 vs 89.2
x264 encode, 2nd pass: 31.6 vs 29.5
Windows media encoder: 24 vs 28

Total: 5 vs 1 (slightly) poorer performance. Check.

Summary: The 1100T's more cores, higher frequency and more L2 cache, when compared to the i7 960, did not prevent it from performing slightly worse than the i7 960 in most cases.

*Visit here for more comparisons. The i7 965 EE is equal to the i7 960 in terms of performance when at stock
Edited by born2bwild - 3/22/11 at 7:29pm
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post #277 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by born2bwild View Post
See, this is denial, you're just convincing yourself that you're not seeing a lucid fact that's right in front of you;

I'll take two high-end processors from both companies;

The Intel i7 960 vs AMD PII 1100T

Price: $290 vs $220
Cores: 4 vs 6 More cores. Check.
Non-Turbo Frequency: 3.2Ghz vs 3.3 Ghz Higher CPU freq.
Turbo Frequency: 3.46Ghz vs 3.7 Ghz Check.
Manufacturing Tech: 45nm vs 45nm
L2 Cache: 4 x 256KB vs 6 x 512KB More L2 Cache. Check.

Performance (winner underlined):

Sysmark Overall: 238 vs 204
Adobe Photoshop CS4 Bench - Retouch: 15.0s vs 18.4
DivX 6.8.5 Encode (Xmpeg 5.0.3): 32.3s vs 35.5s
x264 encode, 1st pass: 85.8 vs 89.2
x264 encode, 2nd pass: 31.6 vs 29.5
Windows media encoder: 24 vs 28

Total: 5 vs 1 (slightly) poorer performance. Check.

Summary: The 1100T's more cores, higher frequency and more L2 cache, when compared to the i7 960, did not prevent it from performing slightly worse than the i7 960 in most cases.
See, this is bias. 15 seconds verus 18.4 seconds? 31.6 versus 29.5? 24 versus 28? 85.8 versus 89.2? These are all within 5 digits. Besides sysmark.

Next time, be less bias.
post #278 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino View Post
See, this is bias. 15 seconds verus 18.4 seconds? 31.6 versus 29.5? 24 versus 28? 85.8 versus 89.2? These are all within 5 digits. Besides sysmark.

Next time, be less bias.
First of all, even milliseconds matter, this is a comparison between two processors.
Second, it is the percentages that really matter in comparisons like this, not the a specific amount of time.
Thirdly, I said slightly worse... not a mile.
Fourthly, I have no bias, I presented data as it is.

Fifth point, and most importantly, the argument is that simply because AMD is gonna have more cores, higher clocks and more L2 caches, their processors will perform better. And I just posted proof that an AMD processor with more cores, higher clocks and more L2 cache does not perform better than an Intel counterpart.

Number of cores, clocks and amount of L2 cache does not dictate performance, many other factors are involved. Currently it is impossible to know how BD will perform.
Edited by born2bwild - 3/22/11 at 6:41pm
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post #279 of 300
I know what is reeeeally smart guys... let argue about phenom vs i79xx in a BULLDOZER thread.

Come guys, phenom is irrelevant to this conversion. The architecture is completely different. Past AMD CPUs can't be used when speculating on BD performance. I have said once and I will say it again...

The only similarity between phenom and bulldozer is the AMD logo. Now stop this pointless fight...
post #280 of 300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homeles View Post
Why? The L2 cache is gigantic. Why does it matter if it's shared?
Size isn't everything, it's no use having 1GB of L3 cache if you can only access it at 500MB/s. (For comparison, my DDR3-1333 is ~4000MB/s)

Quote:
Originally Posted by born2bwild View Post
Well if you had read my second post, you would have noticed I was referring to Phenom IIs in which case they do have more cores, higher clocks and more L2 caches, but perform worse than Intel CPUs in most cases. Just compare the 1100T to the i7 960, or the PII 980 to the i5 750.

We're not talking about Xeons here, just mainstream CPUs like commonly found i7s and i5s vs PII x4 and PII x6.

I also pointed out that smaller manufacturing process in no way guarantees the fantastic 5+ Ghz for 24/7 use we've seen with SB.

Now, I'm not saying Bulldozer won't outperform SB (maybe it will, maybe it won't), I'm just pointing out some AMD fans are making outlandish statements (such as BD will "bulldoze" SB, it will overclock more, it will perform much better) with no proof and I'm showing that these claims have no basis.
Notice how I said Phenom II in that? And neither am I talking about Xeons, especially considering that internally, a Xeon is exactly the same as a Core i7, Core i5, etc minus maybe a second QPI channel.

I'm saying AMD is using completely new stuff with Bulldozer, it's a fresh start...We can't draw any information from Phenom II really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pursuinginsanity View Post
Brutuz: Neither AMD nor Intel sell pre-overclocked chips.

My previous point stands. And, if anything, your comment makes AMD look worse. I'll explain.

These lower clocked Intel's (1.86ghz C2D, i5 750) are beating higher clocked AMDs (such as a 2.6ghz BE, Ph II 955 BE) at stock. The Intels are getting gigantic overclocks by comparison (they would have to, to reach the same clocks as the AMD) which means they're only going to pull further ahead once OCing comes into the picture.

But since we were discussing RETAIL chips, this doesn't matter.

Edit: Oh, and the first Phenom was clocked lower.. but I don't think AMD meant it that way.
Oh, indeed, Phenom II is slower than Nehalem, etc unless you have a very specific workload, but Bulldozer remains to be seen.
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