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[Official] The Sandy Stable Club **Guides, Voltages, Temps & BIOS Templates** Inc SPREADSHEET - Page 754

post #7531 of 10702
Quote:
Originally Posted by mardon View Post

Ok my overclock is stable. Voltage a little higher than I would like. Do people think this is ok for 24/7 use?

4.8ghz 1.4Vcore (windows) using offset mode with C1/E turned on. Max temp when gaming encoding etc 51C or 59C Intel Burn test. Voltage is a little high but temps are good.. What do people think?

Should I drop down to 4.5Ghz and a lower voltage? Way I figure it the voltage is only that high now and again not constant and I have the 3 year intel warranty.

 

I can't answer any questions about Intel warranties but I personally believe that your voltages and temperatures are just fine for 24/7 use. I set my personal limit at 1.416 Vcore and 80C as a maximum. I can run 4.9 GHz on that, or maybe 5.0 GHz if I get lucky. I'm actually down at 1.336 Vcore and 4.7 GHz and now that I case-modded, my temperatures are < 60C just like yours. I think that you're perfectly fine there and that you should feel confident at 4.8 GHz.
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ped5 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by shad0wfax View Post


I normally don't recommend much LLC, but if you're getting extreme Vdroop, you could increase your LLC level by one increment. You'd have to decrease the offset voltage and/or additional turbo voltage accordingly, but it does seem to help some.

 

I was able to get 4.5 GHz stable Regular LLC (disabled / 0%) , and was able to go from 4.6 GHz through 4.9 GHz with Medium LLC (25%). When I went up to 5.0 and 5.1 GHz I needed to use High LLC (50%) to combat the Vdroop. 


Hi Shad0wfax,

Interesting points regarding LLC, so for you LLC should be used sparingly?

So do you use set turbo voltage to also help combat the Vdroop, or are they completely uncorrelated? I have my turbo voltage set to auto, but I'm only looking at 4.6GHz. On the flip side I require a 75% LLC because of the Vdroop I see. I know each mobo is different, but seems I may be overcompensating with LLC without tweaking other parameters that may help.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

Short answer:

 

Offset Voltage, Additional Turbo Voltage, and LLC are all related. Changing one of the values can have an impact on the way the other values behave. It's best to adjust one value at a time and experiment with your system, starting with small values and working your way up in small increments.

 

In my opinion, use the minimum amount of offset voltage to keep idle voltage at your preferred target voltage for 1.6 GHz. (My system likes 0.920 Vcore there) and then use the minimum amount of additional turbo voltage to keep your Vcore above BSOD levels at maximum load Vdroop conditions. Use the minimum amount of LLC possible to prevent you from needing to supply too much turbo voltage to combat Vdroop. Use LLC as a buffer to help minimize voltage overshoot during load transients on and off of 100% load conditions.

 

A much more detailed answer, but still an oversimplification in layman's terms. I am by no means an Intel engineer, nor am I quoting the Intel Whitesheets here. (Click to show)

 

The BIOS and the CPU/motherboard work together to get a VID value for a given frequency and load condition and then place a voltage on the core to account for that VID value and other factors to try to produce a stable voltage. I know that the VCCSA is involved here, and it's normally not advised to adjust VCCSA at all. (That's the system agent voltage.) There is some automated voltage assignment here that you don't have much control over unless you go straight to a manual Vcore setting.

 

The controls that you do have available (that relate directly to the CPU) are:


Offset Voltage:

 

The offset voltage modifies the voltage supplied to the core, after getting ahold of the VID. If you use a -0.030 offset voltage, it will shift all voltages down by 30 mV at any clock speed. Of course, that's in an ideal world. In reality, the amount of shift may not be 30 mV; it may be 10 mV or 50 mV depending on many other factors. Offset voltage is used to get your minimum voltage at 1.6 GHz idle conditions to the correct value to avoid idle BSODs, which are usually a 101 (under-voltage) BSOD.

 

Turbo Voltage:

 

The additional turbo voltage supplies an additional voltage when the CPU is operating in its "turbo" state, which means at high load and high frequencies above the normal ratio of the core. (In the case of my 2500K, this means above 3.3 GHz). If you select additional turbo voltage 0.060 (the value is always positive) you are restricting the maximum additional turbo voltage to 60 mV. You would do this both to supply the minimum voltage to be stable at the high frequency, as well as to combat Vdroop to some extent at high load.

 

But sometimes, at the frequency you want to run, you'll get a nice target voltage at idle 1.6 GHz of maybe 0.900 to 1.000V and that may be exactly where you want to be. You might use a negative 20 mV (-0.020V) offset for this. However, at that high frequency, to combat Vdroop, you might have to use a 160 mV offset voltage. Let's say that you're at 5.0 GHz and 1.416 Vcore, under full load conditions. But to actually hit 1.416 Vcore and be stable at 5.0 GHz you might have to specify a 280 mV additional turbo voltage. Then when your core unloads, you get a spike up to 1.550V core and you get a BSOD (or you damage your CPU, or hit your own personal limits). For any number of reasons, this is a bad idea.

 

Load Line Calibration (LLC):

 

This is where LLC comes in. Rather than applying a fixed additional turbo voltage, you can use LLC to implement a scaling voltage. (Hence the name, Load Line Calibration; you're actually recalibrating the positive slope line that supplies voltage to your Vcore based on VID, so that as VID increases, Vcore increases at an increasing rate.) So you set LLC at High (50%) for example, and suddenly your offset voltage and your turbo voltage are multiplied. This means that at the lower frequencies and voltages, you will probably have to reduce your positive offset (or increase the magnitude of your negative offset) and you'll probably have to reduce your additional turbo voltage drastically. With LLC, the more load you put on your CPU, the more additional voltage is supplied as additional turbo voltage. This helps you combat Vdroop without getting those crazy swings in Vcore during load transients.

 

So LLC is not all bad, in fact, it can be very useful to stabilize a very high OC that would normally be unstable through the standard offset + turbo voltage modes. (Of course with a manual voltage, you wouldn't need LLC, but you lose all of the power efficiency at the lower clock speeds.) The downside is that LLC seems to generate more heat for a given voltage than not using LLC and thus at the high frequencies, LLC can cause a bit of internal throttling and reduce the efficiency of your overclock.

 

Overclocking using the offset mode is a balancing game. Changing the offset will change all voltages at all frequencies. Changing the LLC will change all voltages at all frequencies but has a more marked affect on the higher frequencies, especially with higher values of LLC. Additional turbo voltage is always something that I set manually, rather than automatically, and I'm unsure if it is a fixed additional value or if it is a scaling value, automatic up to that limit. I suspect it is the latter based on my observations but I can't prove it.

 

LLC


I posted in great detail in another thread about LLC and how it affects things. LLC simply forces the turbo voltage to increase at a more rapid rate as clock speed increases, in order to combat Vdroop. Rather than adding +0.050V across the board at all frequencies, to pick a number at random, it will do something akin to adding +0.020 at low clocks, +0.040 at moderate load, and +0.060 at high load. Ramping the LLC up to a higher value, simply exaggerates the slope of the line, making it 020, 060, 090, for example.


All of those numbers are made up, but they illustrate a point. The issue is that LLC places more load on your VRM and CPU and can cause heat to increase more at a given frequency and voltage than using a lower value of LLC does, due to the way LLC works.

 

Thus, LLC has the potential to rob CPU cycles by hitting current or temperature limiting throttles silently for a few milliseconds. I actually found that a Medium LLC (25% or first increment above disabled) at 4.7 GHz and 1.336 Vcore gives me more gflop/s in IBT and higher benchmark scores in Cinebench than a High LLC at 4.8 GHz and the 1.360 Vcore that I need to operate at 4.8 GHz. Likewise, Medium LLC at 4.7 with a higher turbo voltage outperforms high LLC at 4.7 with a lower turbo voltage.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingT View Post

I set via TurboV EVO (booted with my 12hrs P95 stable 4.5GHz BIOS settings):

VRM freq to 500KHz
Phase Ctrl = MANUAL (ULTRA FAST)
Duty Ctrl = EXTREME
PLL= 1.7V
Vcore = 1.23V
LLC= Ultra High

With these settings @ 4.6GHz I'm farly stable in Custom P95 1344K for 45 minutes wth LOAD Vcore @ 1.376V

Now when I try IBT Vcore jumps to 1.40V under LOAD, so WTH?

How can I set my Vcore that in both P95 and IBT it's ~ 1.376V LOAD??

If I try to lower LLC then it would give less Vcore in P95 and crash my system..


CHEERS..


At 4.6 GHz you can probably reduce your VRM frequency to 350 KHz which will reduce the VRM heat significantly without harming your overclock stability at all. You may be able to reduce your PLL to as low as 1.450 V (My system likes 1.550V) Basically, get PLL as low as you can while still being able to POST and boot into Windows, and your OC will still be stable and you'll have less heat output.

 

Q:
"Now when I try IBT Vcore jumps to 1.40V under LOAD, so WTH?"

 

A:

"LLC= Ultra High"

 

See my long explanation above.

 

At 4.6 GHz there's absolutely no reason to come anywhere near an Ultra High LLC.

 

If you are using offset voltage modes:

Reduce it to Medium and then adjust your offset and turbo voltage accordingly. Increase additional turbo voltage to combat Vdroop. My system at 4.7 GHz likes a -0.030V offset, a +0.128 additional turbo voltage, and a Medium LLC. That gives me 1.336 Vcore at 100% load and 4.7 GHz.

 

If you're using a manual voltage mode (which it appears you are):

Increase your Vcore and don't use LLC at all, or if you have to use LLC, use a Medium value.

 

Although your system will be different, in terms of exact values, it should be fairly close. Your LLC is way too high for your frequency.

 

 

EDIT: Another thing to bear in mind is that IBT places more load on your CPU than Prime95 does in terms of power consumption and thermal output. Because of this, your VID is higher in IBT than it will be in Prime95 (in most tests, but at some specific in-place FFTs Prime95 should come close to IBT). Because your VID is so much higher in IBT, your automated voltage adjustments (controlled in large part by LLC in your case) kick in at higher values. "Ulrtra High" or "Extreme" offset voltages and IBT are a recipe for disaster in most cases.


Edited by shad0wfax - 2/24/12 at 3:59pm
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post #7532 of 10702
I'll be honest with all of you, I have no idea what CPU I/O voltage or what you use it for. I know that it is important, can I get some help with how to use it? can I lower my Vcore if I set it manually it?
post #7533 of 10702
Quote:
Originally Posted by shad0wfax View Post




At 4.6 GHz you can probably reduce your VRM frequency to 350 KHz which will reduce the VRM heat significantly without harming your overclock stability at all. You may be able to reduce your PLL to as low as 1.450 V (My system likes 1.550V) Basically, get PLL as low as you can while still being able to POST and boot into Windows, and your OC will still be stable and you'll have less heat output.

Q:

"Now when I try IBT Vcore jumps to 1.40V under LOAD, so WTH?"

A:
"LLC= Ultra High"

See my long explanation above.

At 4.6 GHz there's absolutely no reason to come anywhere near an Ultra High LLC.

If you are using offset voltage modes:
Reduce it to Medium and then adjust your offset and turbo voltage accordingly. Increase additional turbo voltage to combat Vdroop. My system at 4.7 GHz likes a -0.030V offset, a +0.128 additional turbo voltage, and a Medium LLC. That gives me 1.336 Vcore at 100% load and 4.7 GHz.

If you're using a manual voltage mode (which it appears you are):
Increase your Vcore and don't use LLC at all, or if you have to use LLC, use a Medium value.

Although your system will be different, in terms of exact values, it should be fairly close. Your LLC is way too high for your frequency.


EDIT: Another thing to bear in mind is that IBT places more load on your CPU than Prime95 does in terms of power consumption and thermal output. Because of this, your VID is higher in IBT than it will be in Prime95 (in most tests, but at some specific in-place FFTs Prime95 should come close to IBT). Because your VID is so much higher in IBT, your automated voltage adjustments (controlled in large part by LLC in your case) kick in at higher values. "Ulrtra High" or "Extreme" offset voltages and IBT are a recipe for disaster in most cases.

This was just a brief test with VRM freq @ 500KHz (usually I use 350KHz)..

I tried with less LLC but still LOAD Vcore in IBT is approx =0.020V higher than it is in P95..

If I lower Vcore to match IBT load voltage to P95 then Vcoe in P95 drops also and it's impossible to equalize both voltages..

Simply IBT has more load on the CPU and that makes LLC to kick in higher than it does in P95..

Now. since 3101 BIOS for Asus P8Z68-V PRO/Gen3 there's no more Additional Turbo voltage option available in the BIOS, so you can either set Vcore in Manual mode or in Offset mode..

My chip doesn't like low PLL, lowest stable PLL is 1.65V for 4.5GHz, for 4.6/4.7GHz it needs 1.7V PLL..


CHEERS..
     
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post #7534 of 10702
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingT View Post


This was just a brief test with VRM freq @ 500KHz (usually I use 350KHz)..

I tried with less LLC but still LOAD Vcore in IBT is approx =0.020V higher than it is in P95..

If I lower Vcore to match IBT load voltage to P95 then Vcoe in P95 drops also and it's impossible to equalize both voltages..

Simply IBT has more load on the CPU and that makes LLC to kick in higher than it does in P95..

Now. since 3101 BIOS for Asus P8Z68-V PRO/Gen3 there's no more Additional Turbo voltage option available in the BIOS, so you can either set Vcore in Manual mode or in Offset mode..

My chip doesn't like low PLL, lowest stable PLL is 1.65V for 4.5GHz, for 4.6/4.7GHz it needs 1.7V PLL..


CHEERS..
 


Ouch. That's bad news about the 3101 BIOS not having additional turbo voltage in the advanced settings for CPU parameters. Every CPU and motherboard are different. If 1.7 PLL is what you need, then so be it. :) It was just a suggestion.

 

Try setting your voltage higher manually and reducing your LLC to High or Medium. IBT should have a higher VID than Prime95 but the at load voltage after Vdroop is accounted for in IBT should be lower than Prime95. That's how it has always been in my experience, anyhow. IBT seems to, on my system, be much more tolerant of lower voltages and Vdroops than Prime95 was.

 

Also, I only use IBT as a maximum heat and power consumption test initially. I use Prime95 for all of my stability testing. Then I come back to IBT to tweak my OC to get the best gflop/s for a given frequency, and then I go back and get stable again in Prime95.

 

I wouldn't place too much reliance on IBT. Just use it to verify that you're not going over-volt or over-temperature.

 

1.400 V in IBT under load at 4.6 GHz is a bit on the high side for most CPUs but it sounds like your CPU requires more voltage. 1.400V as an absolute maximum in IBT is not at all going to hurt your CPU and you're totally safe there at that value because you'll likely never come close to that in 24/7 use. (And honestly, I feel like 1.400V is fine for 24/7 use too.)

 

Your system is what it is, and if that's the best you can get it, don't worry about the 1.40 V in IBT. Just run your Prime95 tests, get 12+ hour stable, get your sandy stable club badge here, and enjoy your CPU! :) Don't worry about the 1.4 IBT thing.

 

EDIT: Reducing LLC to High (or medium if you can) and increasing voltage will let it droop a bit more, but may also not over-volt in IBT based on VID. It's worth a try, just reduce LLC by one increment and then increase voltage until you get the same value for Vcore in Prime95, and then after that re-test IBT and see if it droops more and stays stable. That's what I meant by "reduce" voltage. I don't mean to reduce the actual Prime95 operating load voltage. :)


Edited by shad0wfax - 2/24/12 at 5:00pm
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post #7535 of 10702
So what is the advantage of tweaking your vrm frequency? I always left it at auto. What is a good setting for 4.7?
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post #7536 of 10702
delete me!
Edited by flipe - 2/24/12 at 7:14pm
post #7537 of 10702
Quote:
Originally Posted by shad0wfax View Post



I normally don't recommend much LLC, but if you're getting extreme Vdroop, you could increase your LLC level by one increment. You'd have to decrease the offset voltage and/or additional turbo voltage accordingly, but it does seem to help some.

I was able to get 4.5 GHz stable Regular LLC (disabled / 0%) , and was able to go from 4.6 GHz through 4.9 GHz with Medium LLC (25%). When I went up to 5.0 and 5.1 GHz I needed to use High LLC (50%) to combat the Vdroop.

Every CPU is different and our motherboards are not exactly the same model, so the frequencies may be a bit off, but you might try increasing your LLC slightly and see how it goes. (I wouldn't go beyond High at 4.8 GHz though and I'd never use Extreme LLC at any clock speed.)

 

That Gen3 mobo actually died today so I'm assuming that was the problem lol. It was showing signs of it being faulty before (computer randomly shut down twice and I had to reseat the CPU to get it to boot up again, sata ports would randomly stop working), but I was too lazy to switch back. My normal P8Z68-V Pro is fine though, and the Vdroop is a lot less severe. I can lower the voltage down to 1.4v instead of 1.415v, but I have to use Ultra High LLC =/.
post #7538 of 10702
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayjr1105 View Post

+rep for the +-10% info. It makes perfect sense. If you test a typical 5v DC power adapter with a multimeter you will most likely see 5.5-6V. Funny how 20% is 1.52v thumb.gif
By the way. Where did you get 1.27V from? Is that Intel recommended voltage for stock (with turbo)?

I seem to recall my cpu running at the high side of 1.26~1.27v stock, am i remembering wrong? i usually go by what the bios has to say, not necessarily cpuz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayjr1105 View Post

So what is the advantage of tweaking your vrm frequency? I always left it at auto. What is a good setting for 4.7?

asus reps say 350 khz is good enough for everything reasonable
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post #7539 of 10702
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jayjr1105 View Post

So what is the advantage of tweaking your vrm frequency? I always left it at auto. What is a good setting for 4.7?


A faster frequency on the VRM forces the circuitry to respond to transients at a faster rate. This can provide more stability at the higher overclocks. For 4.7 GHz, juan_jose (an asus tech rep) over at [H]ardocp recommended 350 kHz. In fact, he said that the 350 KHz VRM should take you all the way up to 5.0+ GHz. (If I'm not mistaken, he said that for anything over 4.5 GHz that 350 kHz VRM was advisable.)

 

You can go to higher VRM values, but it will place more load on the VRM circuitry (just like overclocking your cpu drives up temperatures and voltages) so the benefits of doing so are outweighed by the thermal instability issues of the VRM circuitry itself. Apparently 350 kHz is good enough and doesn't cause severe load issues.


 

Quote:

Originally Posted by piskooooo View Post

 

That Gen3 mobo actually died today so I'm assuming that was the problem lol. It was showing signs of it being faulty before (computer randomly shut down twice and I had to reseat the CPU to get it to boot up again, sata ports would randomly stop working), but I was too lazy to switch back. My normal P8Z68-V Pro is fine though, and the Vdroop is a lot less severe. I can lower the voltage down to 1.4v instead of 1.415v, but I have to use Ultra High LLC =/.


Oh ouch. It's good to hear that your normal motherboard is fine. Do you think that you might have overloaded or overheated something on the motherboard or was it a manufacturing defect?

 

I still think that an ultra-high LLC at anything less than 4.9 GHz is indicative of a poorly optimized OC (or possibly of a motherboard with very weak VRM phases).

 

I didn't mention that in my above posts, because most enthusiasts get motherboards with high quality VRMs (like our asus boards). But even reputable companies can sometimes have a product ship with weak components.

 

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post #7540 of 10702
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryuji View Post

I seem to recall my cpu running at the high side of 1.26~1.27v stock, am i remembering wrong? i usually go by what the bios has to say, not necessarily cpuz

Intel has play room on how they bin there cpus, some of them are going to be lower/higher. forgot to mention.. did a slight ammount of digging around and found this
Quote:
stock voltage on 2600K's is anywhere between 1.240 and 1.260 volts

if you can find a figure showing the maximum default VID intel would acceptably use as a range, i usually use the maximum factory voltage as that is what intels feels is there 'max rated', so i was apparently off by 0.01 in my ref voltage, oopps So thats 1.512 for tip top max and 1.449 for safe water and 1.386 safe air. Of course going over a bit if your temps are good and you dont mind playing the risk game ever so slightly is fine thumb.gif i still personally see +20% as a hard wall if you want your cpu or mobo to last

I once had a prescott 506 that i ran at literally 2 volts(i really didnt care.. it was what, $50 chip back then?), i had two 80mm fans blowing at the VRM and i got 4.5 ghz out of it =P lasted 6 months before the motherboard melted its VRM pretty much literally. I calculated about 200w dissipation from the cpu alone. It was a very cold winter so i appreciated the heat wink.gif 2 volts was a bit much for a 4 phase motherboard tho
Edited by ryuji - 2/24/12 at 5:58pm
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2600k@4.7 Ghz Asus Sabertooth P67 Sapphire HD5870 4x4gb Corsair Vengeance 
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Desktop
(12 items)
 
Router/Server
(6 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
2600k@4.7 Ghz Asus Sabertooth P67 Sapphire HD5870 4x4gb Corsair Vengeance 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingMonitor
120 GB OCZ Vertex 3 Bluray RW drive Silent dual loop water cooling gpu+cpu 2x ASUS VE247H (23.6 inch LED) 
PowerCaseMouseAudio
Antec Truepower Quattro 1KW Thermaltake Armor Razer Naga Epic Asus Xonar D2X, 5.1 channel tube amp 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
E8400 Rampage Formula Mushkin DDR2 3x WD Caviar Black 1TB 64mb cache 
CoolingOS
Silent water cooling 1x120mm radiator, chipset+... Gentoo Linux 
  hide details  
Reply
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