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[NYTimes] Tortoise and Hare, in a Laboratory Flask (evolvability in action) - Page 2

post #11 of 34
i don't think the above poster is serious, but just in case...

Adaptation is something a single organism can do.
It's physiological change in a single organism to improve functionality. By definition, it's dependent on the DNA you were born with.

For example, when we travel to higher altitudes, we produce a molecule that wedges our hemoglobin open, helping us get more O2 to tissue. We also crank out an increased number of red blood cells and we unconsciously change our breathing patterns. These adaptations allow us to perform better at high altitude.

Evolution is a change of the percentage of what traits (alleles) exist in a population of organisms. Evolution does not occur at the level of a single organism. It is a function of populations of organisms. A single organism can be born with a mutation, but that is not evolution, it is a mechanism by which evolution can occur.

For example, 10,000 years ago or so, an individual was born in the Black Sea region with a mutation that blocked pigmentation being deposited in the iris like it should, resulting in blue eyes. Apparently, this was considered a desirable trait in a mate, because in a few thousand years blue eyes became quite common. And thus, because a novel genetic trait had a substantial increase in the world's population, human beings as a species experienced a bit of evolution.
Edited by Mjolnir - 3/24/11 at 7:27pm
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post #12 of 34
I have to agree with Mjolnir. I think there has been evolution, but change within a species itself does not prove evolution. Just like breeding animals for a desirable trait. If they start to breed freely they will revert to their wild forms. What has yet to be shown is a new species coming to be. His post above this is a bunch of crap, but the idea that changes occur within a species is not very novel.
post #13 of 34
I can buy into micro-evolution because results are repeatable in a laboratory.

Macro-evolution is a different thing completely and until we learn to really manipulate time and space around us we will never be able to repeat lab results regarding it.
post #14 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by downlinx;12850156 
ehh, thats not evolution thats merely adaption, there is a huge difference.

If you read the abstract on the science article, you'll notice that the genotype the organisms are different, meaning that they have undergone mutation. This isn't about differential gene/protein expression, but rather the chromosome has actually changed in sequence.
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post #15 of 34
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaxel;12860363 
I have to agree with Mjolnir. I think there has been evolution, but change within a species itself does not prove evolution. confused.gif Just like breeding animals for a desirable trait. If they start to breed freely they will revert to their wild forms.confused.gifWhat has yet to be shown is a new species coming to be. confused.gif His post above this is a bunch of crap, but the idea that changes occur within a species is not very novel. confused.gif

Ugh...Really? Of course the IDEA isn't novel... Proving it with living organisms IS.

This entire post gave me my first good laugh of the morning.
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post #16 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaxel;12860363 
I think there has been evolution, but change within a species itself does not prove evolution.

Adaptations within specific individuals of a species would certainly not prove evolution. However, from the article:
Quote:
The scientists observed that after 500 generations, two types of E. coli were dominant in the flask, each with a distinctive set of mutations. After 1,000 generations, however, only one type was left. Dr. Lenski and his colleagues dubbed them the “eventual winners.”

Distinct mutations in each distinct species = evolution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaxel;12860363 
Just like breeding animals for a desirable trait. If they start to breed freely they will revert to their wild forms.

You breed animals for a desirable trait, meaning that its offspring will contain the desirable trait. If you let them breed with other "wild form" animals, it does NOT mean that the species will return back to their "wild forms". Because you selected for the desired trait, the most likely scenario is that desired trait will become more prevalent in the species, due to selection.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaxel;12860363 
What has yet to be shown is a new species coming to be. His post above this is a bunch of crap, but the idea that changes occur within a species is not very novel.

Of course it's not novel... it was presented by Charles Darwin some 152 years ago in his "On the Origin of Species". While this experiment did not give rise necessarily to a new species of bacteria, this is still an example of evolution. As mjolnir stated, Evolution (also known as biological or organic evolution) is the change over time in one or more inherited traits found in populations of organisms. This was most certainly exemplified in the experiment, as different mutations arose in different lines of E. coli that became inherited as generations passed.

The purpose of this article is evolvability, not debating the presence of evolution.
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post #17 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfeng91;12862474 

The purpose of this article is evolvability, not debating the presence of evolution.

The presence of evolution is already observed, confirmed, and established as a theory as far as science is concerned. Theory is the highest position something can have in science. The theory of gravity, wave theory of light etc. People who doubt it literally make me doh.gif

Evolution has fossil evidence, radiometric dating evidence of those fossils, geological location of those fossils, morphological evidence, DNA sequencing evidence, and observed mutation and evolution in the lab all supporting it.

The evidence against evolution is...?

This topic always frustrates me to no end. Some people just simply refuse to accept that evolution is real.
    
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post #18 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epitope;12865528 
The presence of evolution is already observed, confirmed, and established as a theory as far as science is concerned. Theory is the highest position something can have in science. The theory of gravity, wave theory of light etc. People who doubt it literally make me doh.gif

Evolution has fossil evidence, radiometric dating evidence of those fossils, geological location of those fossils, morphological evidence, DNA sequencing evidence, and observed mutation and evolution in the lab all supporting it.

The evidence against evolution is...?

This topic always frustrates me to no end. Some people just simply refuse to accept that evolution is real.

No it isn't. What we have observed we cannot repeat. End of story.

Bacterium generations that are 1 second long as opposed to Galapagos Tortoise generations which are literally billions and billions times longer is not the same thing. We will never be able to demonstrate what we see in bacterium for instance with larger species with longer generations.

Evolution is a theory. Albeit a widely accepted one.
Edited by Segovax - 3/25/11 at 8:52am
post #19 of 34
If bacteria can evolve then why are there still bacteria?
post #20 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Segovax;12865722 
No it isn't. What we have observed we cannot repeat. End of story.

Bacterium generations that are 1 second long as opposed to Galapagos Tortoise generations which are literally billions and billions times longer is not the same thing. We will never be able to demonstrate what we see in bacterium for instance with larger species with longer generations.

First of all, I have a degree in Microbiology and am 3 years into earning my PhD in it as well. I grow bacterial cultures, mutate bacteria, and observe the mutated proteins on a daily basis. I use both site directed mutagenesis (where I control the mutation directly) and directed evolution (where I let the bacteria mutate on its own and simply look for the desired mutation).

That being said...

The fasted bacteria generations are about 20 minutes long, not 1 second. This is only seen in absolutely perfect growing conditions and cannot be maintained for more than an hour or two because the bacteria quickly consume their growth media. Usually my cultures are only at this peak growing rate for less than 30 minutes. This is usually observed at an optical density of 0.6 at 600nm wavelength of light. That's the most common method for determining the density of a e. coli bacterial culture. I make that measurement several times a day.

Something does not need to be directly observed to be known. How do we convict people of murder when there is no witness? We use the available evidence to come to a reasonable conclusion.

What is the evidence against evolution? There is a ridiculous amount of evidence supporting evolution. So much so that I can't even scratch the surface if I tried.

Numerous instances of speciation have been observed.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
    
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