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[NYTimes] Tortoise and Hare, in a Laboratory Flask (evolvability in action) - Page 3

post #21 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Segovax;12865722 
Evolution is a theory. Albeit a widely accepted one.

Please go read the definition of a "Scientific Theory".

Do not mistake a scientific theory with the layman's definition of theory. They are quite different.


Raise your hand if you have any college-level science background?
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post #22 of 34
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Segovax View Post
No it isn't. What we have observed we cannot repeat. End of story.

Bacterium generations that are 1 second long as opposed to Galapagos Tortoise generations which are literally billions and billions times longer is not the same thing. We will never be able to demonstrate what we see in bacterium for instance with larger species with longer generations.

Evolution is a theory. Albeit a widely accepted one.
Wrong. And this article is just one that proves evolution. Because we haven't witnessed it happening with turtles or larger organisms means nothing.
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post #23 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by damian5000 View Post
Wrong. And this article is just one that proves evolution. Because we haven't witnessed it happening with turtles or larger organisms means nothing.
Technically, it supports evolution.

You cannot prove a theory with one experiment.


However, you are correct that theory does not have to be proven to be a theory.


i.e. Gravity. When the gravitation theory was developed, scientists could not fully test it. However, theories are more of a framework of things work.
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post #24 of 34
You're right I don't have any real college level science. Just low level classes. I have had the evolution conversation with someone close to me who has a PhD from WSU in Science though, and I was trying to paraphrase. I did a horrible job.

That is interesting thought about growing bacteria thanks for setting me straight, I was really just using 1 second as an example but it's good information to know.

The murder analogy was a bad one though, you have evidence, great, but you can't repeat the process to understand how the murder happened?

That's called reasonable doubt to me. Anyway I'll go away, I know evolution is a touchy subject around here.

I read the theory definition how did I use the word incorrectly?
post #25 of 34
A scientific theory is something that explains all applicable observed phenomena while being contradicted by none. Evolution explains the diversity of life we see today, the fossil record, the variations and obvious connections we see in DNA etc.

Nothing in science is ever proven. True scientists are always careful to word things so that they say "The data suggests that ________ ". Science is always open to correction. Even the most central ideas to modern science can be overturned with proper evidence.

People who are opposed to the idea of evolution simply need to provide evidence to the contrary. The idea that evolution is not true because we haven't observed massive changes in complex animals like tortoises do not have a valid point.

The dwarf planet (it's still a planet to me damnit!) Pluto was first observed in 1915 and not realized to be a (dwarf) planet until about 1930. The orbit of Pluto takes 248 years to circle the Sun one time. It hasn't even completed half an orbit since we first discovered it.

Is it safe to argue that Pluto is not orbiting the Sun just because we have not seen it orbit the Sun?

No.

Why? Because all the available evidence suggests that it is indeed orbiting the Sun. If there was some contradictory evidence to the idea that Pluto was orbiting the Sun them one could make that argument. The same holds true for evolution. Put up some contradictory evidence or shut up... That's how science works.
Edited by Epitope - 3/25/11 at 9:28am
    
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post #26 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Segovax View Post

I read the theory definition how did I use the word incorrectly?
You used the word theory as if it means hypothesis. Theory, in common everyday street english really means hypothesis as scientists would use the word hypothesis.

Theory to a scientist, means something that has been demonstrated to be true many many times and never, not even once, been refuted. It is similar to a theorem in math. A theorem can be proven in math because math is different than real world experiments.

A^2 + B^2 = C^2 when one looks at right triangles. This can be proven.

Science can never prove something without a doubt. There could always be some future experiment that blows the lid off any concept. Science accepts this. Thats why a theory is simply something that is the best explanation for a phenomena so far.

Evolution is such a theory. It explains what we see in nature today and has not been refuted yet.

Find a bird or mammal fossil that is older than about 300 million years and then I will question evolution...
    
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post #27 of 34
You're right I did use it like that, thanks for explaining it.
post #28 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epitope View Post
A scientific theory is something that explains all applicable observed phenomena while being contradicted by none. Evolution explains the diversity of life we see today, the fossil record, the variations and obvious connections we see in DNA etc.

Nothing in science is ever proven. True scientists are always careful to word things so that they say "The data suggests that ________ ". Science is always open to correction. Even the most central ideas to modern science can be overturned with proper evidence.

People who are opposed to the idea of evolution simply need to provide evidence to the contrary. The idea that evolution is not true because we haven't observed massive changes in complex animals like tortoises do not have a valid point.

The dwarf planet (it's still a planet to me damnit!) Pluto was first observed in 1915 and not realized to be a (dwarf) planet until about 1930. The orbit of Pluto takes 248 years to circle the Sun one time. It hasn't even completed half an orbit since we first discovered it.

Is it safe to argue that Pluto is not orbiting the Sun just because we have no seen it orbit the Sun?

No.

Why? Because all the available evidence suggests that it is indeed orbiting the Sun. If there was some contradictory evidence to the idea that Pluto was orbiting the Sun them one could make that argument. The same holds true for evolution. Put up some contradictory evidence or shut up... That's how science works.

To further add to this great post.... just because contradictary evidence to a theory has been found, it does not necessarily mean that the theory is invalid.

An example of this would be classical physics. These rules worked fine in everyday observable experiments. However, they started to break down at very high speeds or mass. Then modern physics was developed and encompasses classical physics. These new equations take into account relativistic affects. However, if you use them for everyday observable experiments, the relativistic components become negligable.
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post #29 of 34
My post was simply providing the definition of, and the distinctions between, adaptation and evolution. They are not interchangeable terms.

Another point that never ceases to irk me: lay persons always talk about micro-evolution and macro evolution as if they were different processes'. They are not.

Organisms can either change over time or they cannot. Changes in a population of organisms over time can be additive. If so, you can always add further change, the arbitrary wall imposed by so-called "micro-evolution" does not exist. Donkeys and horses share a common ancestor but they are different species because they are becoming genetically further and further apart. They can breed, but the offspring is sterile. Sheep and goats are another example of "speciation in progress". They too can breed, but the offspring are born dead. These are two examples of organisms with almost identical dna, known ancestry, that are becoming or have become different species.

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post #30 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post
To further add to this great post.... just because contradictary evidence to a theory has been found, it does not necessarily mean that the theory is invalid.

An example of this would be classical physics. These rules worked fine in everyday observable experiments. However, they started to break down at very high speeds or mass. Then modern physics was developed and encompasses classical physics. These new equations take into account relativistic affects. However, if you use them for everyday observable experiments, the relativistic components become negligable.
True. Newton's laws of physics have been shown to be flawed at extreme conditions and special circumstances. Yet NASA still uses them to put things in orbit. They are still true and perfectly accurate for most applications.
    
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