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[RS] AMD Claim DirectX Not That Bad After All. - Page 3

post #21 of 42
Big f'n deal
post #22 of 42
DX is a powerful layer and even if its still a layer full implementation could result in better gaming graphics and less demanding. Let say they make Crysis 2 DX11 from ground up using DX 11 only. Now take the current Crysis 2 DX9.0c. DX11 will not only look better, use less system power and take full advantage and DX11 GPUs. The problem is less then 15% even more don't have DX11 GPU so they cant do that. I stated PC building around DX9 games and thats 7 years and still DX9 game. I dont remember DX8.1 lasting so long. They should have gone DX10 native long time ago.
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post #23 of 42
From my understanding, there isn't anything you can do to kill an API unless you switch to a new standard like OpenGL, but I don't see that happening any time soon since even Carmack has gone out and stated that DX>GL in this time and day.

If some company were to create a brand new PC-console platform using the latest graphics chips and processors but had to upgrade every 2 years, it would become an issue since the developer or even consumer would get shafted with longevity and initial cost. I personally like consoles, I just don't like the machine essentially being limited to what the owner feels best. 360 and PS3 are capable of so much more.
post #24 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZealotKi11er View Post
DX is a powerful layer and even if its still a layer full implementation could result in better gaming graphics and less demanding. Let say they make Crysis 2 DX11 from ground up using DX 11 only. Now take the current Crysis 2 DX9.0c. DX11 will not only look better, use less system power and take full advantage and DX11 GPUs. The problem is less then 15% even more don't have DX11 GPU so they cant do that. I stated PC building around DX9 games and thats 7 years and still DX9 game. I dont remember DX8.1 lasting so long. They should have gone DX10 native long time ago.
DX9.0c is still so dominant because the Xbox 360 uses it and consoles have a much greater share of the sales, so they're more important and developers make games with them first in mind.

If PC sales had a bigger share, then DX9 would have probably been a thing of the past.
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post #25 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by born2bwild View Post
I agree. MS has done a terrific job with DirectX. There is no need to even think about replacing it. I'm glad AMD came back to their senses (or corrected their "misrepresented" claim).
It doesn't seem that DirectX is an easily scaled language. You can grab 2x the performance hardware and only gain 10-20% in performance gains. This is more of a problem with the language then the coder.
post #26 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom123 View Post
Not to mention that even if there is 1 graphic company, there are new GPU architectures every 2-3 years. So going direct to metal would essentially cut off playability for games as soon as someone wants to upgrade their card.
This guy is intelligent!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeio View Post
Nah, you could emulate, you'd just end up with older games actually performing worse than the newer ones.
Emulation is a software layer... You'd be back at square one

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDProb View Post
im guessing though we could make that layer as thin as possible... right now its fairly bloated
Have you any idea how programming works? Its "bloated" because its graphics library is chuck full of code and legacy support. Though newer versions of Direct3D help to remedy this.
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post #27 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDProb View Post
im guessing though we could make that layer as thin as possible... right now its fairly bloated
Bloat? Please elaborate.

MS needs to implement more functions to abstract more low-level functions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wildcard36qs View Post
Need to go back to where each GPU manufacturer had their own API that fit them best. 3dfx had glide, nvidia was good at opengl and ati directx. I remember that especially with Unreal Tournament, my voodoo2 played that game flawlessly on glide so much better than tnt2 did in opengl.
Horrible idea. Each game would only run Intel, AMD, or NVIDIA GPUs.... consumers would have to check compatibility and if it didn't work, too bad. If a developer wanted to support more than one GPU company, they would have rewrite..... This would kill PC gaming. Standardization is good in cases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZealotKi11er View Post
DX is a powerful layer and even if its still a layer full implementation could result in better gaming graphics and less demanding. Let say they make Crysis 2 DX11 from ground up using DX 11 only. Now take the current Crysis 2 DX9.0c. DX11 will not only look better, use less system power and take full advantage and DX11 GPUs. The problem is less then 15% even more don't have DX11 GPU so they cant do that. I stated PC building around DX9 games and thats 7 years and still DX9 game. I dont remember DX8.1 lasting so long. They should have gone DX10 native long time ago.
Battlefield 3 will tell...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino View Post
It doesn't seem that DirectX is an easily scaled language. You can grab 2x the performance hardware and only gain 10-20% in performance gains. This is more of a problem with the language then the coder.
Huh? It's an API... it's hard to abstract everything.
Once again...
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Once again...
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post #28 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post
Huh? It's an API... it's hard to abstract everything.
By my understanding, an API contains embedded functions used to communicate with a language. What I was trying to get at is that these embedded functions are quite inefficient and usually are more then likely based on "to the n power" instruction sets.

If anything, if you've coded for a particular set of hardware and were able to maintain what you would expect to see if that hardware were constraint to the same restrictions of a console, a more powerful system should scale relatively well. In this case, it does not. The 360 is now being developed with tessellation in mind, and frankly, it makes hardware 2 generations later look like a joke. We should see a linear progression from console games to PC counter-parts if they are indeed developed under the same API. If said application works well under a r500 + tri-core processor, you should see significantly better results on faster hardware as the instruction sets are identical. Hence the reason how superPi improving scaling over the years. Same code, significantly faster on later generation hardware.
Edited by Domino - 3/28/11 at 5:52pm
post #29 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post
Exactly... I think the issue is that readers do not understand the fully implications of going direct to metal.
It used to be direct with no API, forcing everyone to write their own drivers (this isn't directed at you Duckie, I know you understand this, I'm just continuing on with your train of thought).

Anyone remember the days of game installations asking you which sound card you used and which IRQ it was on, and then you had to hope your card was supported? And which graphics settings were supported by your computer (CGA/EGA/VGA)? Those were often drivers that a company had to buy or make themselves to support your specific hardware.

It was bad enough then, and there wasn't even much variety in hardware.

This is why we have things like DirectX and OpenGL, because manufacturers want to make their game once and have it work for all compatible video cards, rather than write their own drivers for each card individually.

And this, is why DX isn't going anywhere anytime soon, unless another API comes and takes its place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino View Post
By my understanding, an API contains embedded functions used to communicate with a language. What I was trying to get at is that these embedded functions are quite inefficient and usually are more then likely based on "to the n power" instruction sets.

If anything, if you've coded for a particular set of hardware and were able to maintain what you would expect to see if that hardware were constraint to the same restrictions of a console, a more powerful system should scale relatively well. In this case, it does not. The 360 is now being developed with tessellation in mind, and frankly, it makes hardware 2 generations later look like a joke. We should see a linear progression from console games to PC counter-parts if they are indeed developed under the same API. If said application works well under a r500 + tri-core processor, you should see significantly better results on faster hardware as the instruction sets are identical. Hence the reason how superPi improving scaling over the years. Same code, significantly faster on later generation hardware.
A lot of the inefficiency is due to compatibility. DX9 runs on how many different GPUs? How many GPUs do 360 games run on? If all PCs used the exact same card, they would all use that card insanely well, maximum efficiency. But when the same function has to work behind the scenes with different drivers and hardware, efficiency is not as easily maintained.
Edited by lordikon - 3/28/11 at 8:37pm
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post #30 of 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnDProb View Post
im guessing though we could make that layer as thin as possible... right now its fairly bloated
Who said it's fairly bloated??
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