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[Gizmag] Pneumatic thought-controlled prosthetic arm created by students - Page 2

post #11 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertymac93 View Post
I seriously doubt you could power anything of significance with a human nervous system, it is for data not power(kinda like trying to power a pc with ethernet). if they can make an electrically powered compressor that is quiet enough to not be bothersome, these arms would be useful... if not, then its back to servos i guess.
Not necessarily so. Voltage potential in the human nervous system is nearing (+/-) 60mV.



http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/...obooknerv.html

With amplification, that is certainly usable. I doubt that is much (if any) different than the way they are using it to control this device. Also, bear in mind: said electical stimulus is what powers the muscles to contract in the first place. Without those muscles in place, there would be an excess of available current. I'm just theorizing, but the possibility remains. Anyway, it's an interesting topic.
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post #12 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky 13 SpeedShop View Post
Not necessarily so. Voltage potential in the human nervous system is nearing (+/-) 60mV.



http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/...obooknerv.html

With amplification, that is certainly usable. I doubt that is much (if any) different than the way they are using it to control this device. Also, bear in mind: said electical stimulus is what powers the muscles to contract in the first place. Without those muscles in place, there would be an excess of available current. I'm just theorizing, but the possibility remains. Anyway, it's an interesting topic.
The nerves only stimulate the muscles into contracting, they don't provide the ENERGY to do so. when was the last time you saw a motor capable of powering a compressor with 60mv anyway? besides, putting a load like that on the nervous system would not feel good to the person using it I'm sure.

I'm not trolling here, just trying to keep it real(lol)
Powering anything with your body is just not feasible if it requires invasive means. I'f however you wanted to use kinetic energy to recharge the batteries(like on the brakes on hybrid cars) then that would make sense, since it would be external and likely much cheaper.
Edited by qwertymac93 - 4/2/11 at 7:49am
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post #13 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertymac93 View Post
The nerves only stimulate the muscles into contracting, they don't provide the ENERGY to do so. when was the last time you saw a motor capable of powering a compressor with 60mv anyway? besides, putting a load like that on the nervous system would not feel good to the person using it I'm sure.

I'm not trolling here, just trying to keep it real(lol)
Powering anything with your body is just not feasible if it requires invasive means. I'f however you wanted to use kinetic energy to recharge the batteries(like on the brakes on hybrid cars) then that would make sense, since it would be external and likely much cheaper.
I don't take it as trolling, don't worry. I like a well rounded debate

Like I said earlier, it provides the stimulus for the muscle fiber to contract causing a chemical reaction. (which requires current, of an unknown quantity atm) Sorry I didn't make that more clear in my last post.

You apparently missed the part where I said amplifying that 60mV. The important thing to consider, is how much current is potentially available, as that would be the limiting factor on amplification (and to a lesser extent, the components used in the amp).With such, it's very feasible. The amplifier can/would electrically isolate the load from feedback introduced into the nervous system. Feedback loops are not necessary in all types of amplifiers. In the case of any of these (including the op topic). The subject of invasive is a given, being that the control device of the pneumatic version is being joined to the nervous system in any case.

Also relevant is the idea that we aren't speaking of classical motor design. Though Nitinol (or Flexinol) is a motor per se (meaning that it converts electrical energy to motion), it's unlike any other type of motor that your thinking of.
Edited by Lucky 13 SpeedShop - 4/2/11 at 9:01am
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post #14 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertymac93 View Post
Yeah, this is exactly what i want to hear every time I'm in a public place...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1czBcnX1Ww
The tech is cool, usefull, and needed. But also INCREDIBLY ANNOYING.
I'm not asking them to quit doing what their doing, I'm just asking them to make it quiet.

Edit: I would however, find it completely hilarious if you walked into a library with an arm powered by a loud ass compressor. Oh how the politically correct(and incorrect) will react... PRICELESS.
Did anybody else laugh their ass off when buddy tried kicking that thing over? Also, at the end that thing was QWOPing like a champ
    
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post #15 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by angrysasquatch View Post
Did anybody else laugh their ass off when buddy tried kicking that thing over? Also, at the end that thing was QWOPing like a champ
I did kinda.

But really i wouldnt care about the noise if i had my Arm back.
post #16 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by angrysasquatch View Post
Did anybody else laugh their ass off when buddy tried kicking that thing over? Also, at the end that thing was QWOPing like a champ
Creepy as **** when he tried to kick it over.
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post #17 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky 13 SpeedShop View Post
I don't take it as trolling, don't worry. I like a well rounded debate

Like I said earlier, it provides the stimulus for the muscle fiber to contract causing a chemical reaction. (which requires current, of an unknown quantity atm) Sorry I didn't make that more clear in my last post.

You apparently missed the part where I said amplifying that 60mV. The important thing to consider, is how much current is potentially available, as that would be the limiting factor on amplification (and to a lesser extent, the components used in the amp).With such, it's very feasible. The amplifier can/would electrically isolate the load from feedback introduced into the nervous system. Feedback loops are not necessary in all types of amplifiers. In the case of any of these (including the op topic). The subject of invasive is a given, being that the control device of the pneumatic version is being joined to the nervous system in any case.

Also relevant is the idea that we aren't speaking of classical motor design. Though Nitinol (or Flexinol) is a motor per se (meaning that it converts electrical energy to motion), it's unlike any other type of motor that your thinking of.
I heard nitinol wears out easily or something... anyway, i didn't miss the part about the amp, i just ignored it because i figured if your going to use an amp the device would be powered by the amp, and controlled by the nervous system. I think we are agreaing here, we just don't know it yet...
Edited by qwertymac93 - 4/2/11 at 10:53am
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post #18 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertymac93 View Post
I heard nitinol wears out easily or something...
With impurities present, fatigue can become an issue after many heat & cooling cycles due to outgassing of nickel which is an integral part of Nitinol. With greater purity levels (and don't take this as the current purity levels achievable w/ Nitinol. As I'm unable to find sources confirming these levels for this substance), this will become a non issue. Currently, the finest grade metals are achievable in 8N purity (or 99.999999% pure). If they can achieve the same purity w/ Nitinol with Ti02 coatings, ensures outgassing will (has?) become a non issue. Inside of the body, that is not a problem as nitinol vascular self-expandable metallic stents show no evidence of corrosion or nickel release. In any case, we'll see what the future holds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qwertymac93 View Post
I think we are agreaing here, we just don't know it yet...
Lol! Probably are. Text is sometimes difficult to gauge in limited spurts without writing a full dissertation
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post #19 of 23
Did anyone see The Daily Show last week where he had the leading researcher for thought controlled technology on to plug his new book? Extraordinary potential that he believes to be a legitimate reality for paraplegics in the next 5 years. Crysis suits ftw.
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post #20 of 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky 13 SpeedShop View Post
With impurities present, fatigue can become an issue after many heat & cooling cycles due to outgassing of nickel which is an integral part of Nitinol. With greater purity levels (and don't take this as the current purity levels achievable w/ Nitinol. As I'm unable to find sources confirming these levels for this substance), this will become a non issue. Currently, the finest grade metals are achievable in 8N purity (or 99.999999% pure). If they can achieve the same purity w/ Nitinol with Ti02 coatings, ensures outgassing will (has?) become a non issue. Inside of the body, that is not a problem as nitinol vascular self-expandable metallic stents show no evidence of corrosion or nickel release. In any case, we'll see what the future holds.



Lol! Probably are. Text is sometimes difficult to gauge in limited spurts without writing a full dissertation
Inside the body? I think i said earlier(or at least implied) I am not a fan of internal prosthesis. if you were to make a "replacement" arm permanently attached to the user, how would you power it? i know you said amp, but the amp needs a power source, unless you don't believe in thermodynamics O_o
P.S. I feel like we've crossed the line from science, to science fiction here. what you say makes sense in a way, but i just don't see it happening anytime soon. Luke skywalker-esk prosthesis is still a ways away
Edited by qwertymac93 - 4/2/11 at 12:10pm
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