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[TIME] 2045: The Year Man Becomes Immortal - Page 4

post #31 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by De-Zant View Post
We're discussing if it will still be you when you're transferred to a machine



But it can change form, it can be organized in a different fashion, it can move, it can do loads of stuff. The energy that made up your thoughts in your brains will not just stay there when you die. When you die, that energy will not reside there staying in the same format. Your thoughts will be gone because the energy that used to make up most of your thoughts will move on from your brains.
Won't the energy used to comprehend my response will have converted to a different form as well though? Which means the energy used for all of your thoughts at the beginning of this thread will have moved on and no longer make up your thoughts. Making you currently dead.

Edit: Like how a CPU computes something (a thought) using electricity (energy) which is converted to heat (a different form) or just plain moved on and replenished with more electricity (different energy not originally involved in the original thought).
Edited by Kirmie - 4/5/11 at 1:41pm
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post #32 of 121
2045 seems awfully optimistic for the singularity. I would venture he is off by a few hundred years at least. All you have to do is look at Popular Science issues from the mid-20th century to see that progress in certain areas is painfully slow, stops all together, or takes another path. Same holds true today. Just because one area of science is making incredible breakthroughs, others are stuck in theory still. Of course a super-intelligent machine would help in this area, but I think some current physical laws would need to be conquered first to get there. You'll need to do better than electrons to get to the singularity. Once quantum base computers become ubiquitous, then you might be able to start putting a date on when the singularity would be possible. Now it is just conjecture.
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post #33 of 121
I'm pretty sure a person is considered dead when their body permanently ceases all functions and they no longer have any form of consciousness. You can argue metaphysics all you want, but violence has been a relatively effective tool throughout history because people don't just reform and come back as globs of energy waiting to exact revenge.
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post #34 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by De-Zant View Post
Mental state? I'm looking at it too.

What I'm saying is confirmed fact. What he is saying relates to religion. I won't comment there, but it can't even be called a theory. It's a random thought. I don't deny that there is a feint chance of a soul existing, but for now, I see no reason to believe in one. Until I know something (note: this only refers to questions about life and science and origins) for fact, I don't accept it.

However, I think that there might just be some things in our brains that computers can't capture / record perfectly. I don't believe that WE can ever live forever, since it won't be the same atoms, the same electrical pulses in the computer. It just recorded a flash of happens in my brains and starts running it as a process. Then I'm killed. It's not me in there. It's a copy of me.
Yes. That is a very physical way of looking at things. X=Y right?
What if X is interrupted by Z before it gets to Y?

What I mean is, "thought". The mind or thought interrupts the physical state, it gives experience over the physical. Atoms are atoms but experience varies from person to person, Thomas Nagel speaks about this, Phenomenon. That experience or consciousness gives people the definition of a soul, a unique experience to that person.

It's very easy not to believe in a mind, soul or God when seeing things in physical form. The problem with the metal state is the language used to explain it is insufficient, so people dismiss it because when someone tries to explain the mind, soul or God it doesn't makes sense, no one can physically see or touch it. Experience gives use the possibility of a mind or soul since it's forever changing. The term I mean by that is "eliminativism", look it up. For example, when someone compares the mind or soul to a car, atoms, brain, actions, behavior etc. are all physical and not good comparisons. Mental compared to metal and physical with physical, confusion happens when we try to make X=Z=Y so to speak. When you reduce the mind to the physical, it makes the mind/experience insignificant, no more important than a fly on the wall. Your very existence is reduced to nothing.

Both are valid arguments like I said before, but don't dismiss his comments entirely because that's not what you believe, just like you're standing by your beliefs.
Edited by WorldExclusive - 4/5/11 at 1:59pm
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post #35 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirmie View Post
Edit: Like how a CPU computes something (a thought) using electricity (energy) which is converted to heat (a different form) or just plain moved on and replenished with more electricity (different energy not originally involved in the original thought).
But when you die, your brain lacks the capability of bringing back those same thought patterns back to life, unlike a CPU, which starts with the instructions that it has been given by the ROM on the mobo.

You could say that the information from the "thoughts" of the CPU can be transferred to another device. Yes. But that is a copy. Not the original. The original processes running inside the CPU are gone, replaced by new identical processes (if the CPU is running the same software). It's not the original process, it's a copy.

If you get what I'm saying


Quote:
Originally Posted by WorldExclusive View Post
Yes. That is a very physical way of looking at things. X=Y right?
What if X is interrupted by Z before it gets to Y?

What I mean is, "thought". The mind or thought interrupts the physical state, it gives experience over the physical. Atoms are atoms but experience varies from person to person, Thomas Nagel speaks about this, Phenomenon. That experience or consciousness gives people the definition of a soul, a unique experience to that person. Now, what you believe doesn't make someone else wrong. If it's not 100% true, it's a theory, death isn't 100% known no matter who wrote the book. Then what is truth if it's not 100% true, that's another argument.

It's very easy not to believe in a mind, soul or God when seeing things in physical form. The problem with the metal state is the language used to explain it is insufficient. The term I mean by that is "eliminativism", look it up. For example, when someone compares the mind or soul to a car, atoms, brain, actions, behavior etc. are all physical and not good comparisons. Mental compared to metal and physical with physical, confusion happens when we try to make X=Z=Y so to speak. When you reduce the mind to the physical, it makes the mind insignificant, no more important than a fly on the wall. Your very existence is reduced to nothing.

Both are valid arguments like I said before, but don't dismiss his comments entirely because that's not what you believe, just like you're standing by your beliefs.
I'm shooting down peoples beliefs if there is no evidence for them, and slight evidence suggesting against them, and when my beliefs have been proven countless times.

If I believe that green is better than red, it's opinion. I've got no further say in it. If someone says that green IS red, they're obviously wrong and it's not opinion anymore. Opinions have no say in the way of facts.
Edited by De-Zant - 4/5/11 at 1:53pm
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post #36 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by WorldExclusive View Post
Yes. That is a very physical way of looking at things. X=Y right?
What if X is interrupted by Z before it gets to Y?

What I mean is, "thought". The mind or thought interrupts the physical state, it gives experience over the physical. Atoms are atoms but experience varies from person to person, Thomas Nagel speaks about this, Phenomenon. That experience or consciousness gives people the definition of a soul, a unique experience to that person. Now, what you believe doesn't make someone else wrong. If it's not 100% true, it's a theory, death isn't 100% known no matter who wrote the book. Then what is truth if it's not 100% true, that's another argument.

It's very easy not to believe in a mind, soul or God when seeing things in physical form. The problem with the metal state is the language used to explain it is insufficient. The term I mean by that is "eliminativism", look it up. For example, when someone compares the mind or soul to a car, atoms, brain, actions, behavior etc. are all physical and not good comparisons. Mental compared to metal and physical with physical, confusion happens when we try to make X=Z=Y so to speak. When you reduce the mind to the physical, it makes it's insignificant, no more important than a fly on the wall. Your very existence is reduced to nothing.

Both are valid arguments like I said before, but don't shoot down someone opinion because that's what they believe, just like you standing by your beliefs.
This is very true, the part about conciousness. A collective conscious (which is what a singularity would also entail) is the end of individuality. Every one and every thing would think alike because they are deriving their intelligence from the same database. I hate to say it, but think "The Matrix", but without the fake universe and all the humans being used for batteries. Everyone would be plugged in though and everyone would have the same knowledge base, thus losing their individual perceptions and prejudices.
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post #37 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by losttsol View Post
This is very true, the part about conciousness. A collective conscious (which is what a singularity would also entail) is the end of individuality. Every one and every thing would think alike because they are deriving their intelligence from the same database. I hate to say it, but think "The Matrix", but without the fake universe and all the humans being used for batteries. Everyone would be plugged in though and everyone would have the same knowledge base, thus losing their individual perceptions and prejudices.
Not if our thoughts can be described as processes, and most of our processes would be restricted to ourselves, and we could only communicate with others, as we do now. But faster
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post #38 of 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by losttsol View Post
This is very true, the part about conciousness. A collective conscious (which is what a singularity would also entail) is the end of individuality. Every one and every thing would think alike because they are deriving their intelligence from the same database. I hate to say it, but think "The Matrix", but without the fake universe and all the humans being used for batteries. Everyone would be plugged in though and everyone would have the same knowledge base, thus losing their individual perceptions and prejudices.
Correct. The Martix is a good example. The machines had to freeze time by keeping it in the 21 Century, any variation and the machines wouldn't be able to replicate the individual experience from person to person and the humans would reject it. Remember the humans rejected the first Matrix program because it was too perfect and lacked "true experience".

Quote:
Originally Posted by De-Zant View Post
Not if our thoughts can be described as processes, and most of our processes would be restricted to ourselves, and we could only communicate with others, as we do now. But faster
OK, think of it like this. Atoms are atoms right? No atom is different from another right? H20 is H20 which is water, that will never change. Now, explaining that as a process will yield the same experience for everyone, all food will taste the same, sex will feel the same, work, breathing, everything you do physically would feel or function the same because it based on the foundation of atoms.

Is that true? No.

What gives each person a unique experience? It can't be atoms because they are all the same.
This is what plagued many philosophers for many years. Search Thomas Nagel.

Your very opinion, disagreeing(variance) with me is an expression of your mind.
Edited by WorldExclusive - 4/5/11 at 2:12pm
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post #39 of 121
"From the dust we came and to the dust we shall return"
post #40 of 121
Each person is a different kind of arrangement of atoms, not a mere shell. We have major differences in our sensing organs, and the way our brains work. Our experience from earlir years also affects our thoughts
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