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[RE]Scientists find New Delhi residents constantly exposed to drug-resistant bacteria - Page 6

post #51 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamborhgini313 View Post
Brilliant idea...what happens when the radiation is carried over here?

Warheads with larger mega-tonnage were detonated for kicks back in the glory days of cold war, not for testing purposes mind you, just for fun. Ideological posturing you know. By 1960s pretty much everything that needed to be known about what happens after detonation was already known, yet everyone from USA, to good old USSR, and even the French kept popin' em off. Heck, in 1961 a massive 50MT yield bomb/warhead was detonated, aka Tsar Bomba, and there was negligible fallout outside nominal area. I'm talking 10 to 20 MT max range here for New Delhi metro area and environs. Heck, they wouldn't even notice it down-wind in Bohpal or even nearby Jaipur.

Quote:
In theory you could probably clean the area with 1 low yield explosion and just let the methane gas that bubbles up from their pooplakes and pooprivers burn the place clean.
I don't know, now that I think about it, a multi warhead star pattern option seems better for a large place like New Delhi. Up the yieldage to 20MT total, 2-3MT per warhead and I think that would do it. 98% casualty rate on detonation, other 2% within hours due to after-effects. You could go chemical (not fast enough, you gonna have unaffected folks fleeing on donkey, cart, and everything in between in every which way spreading the bacteria) or biological (same problem as chemical, with added bonus of possible mutations and immunity).

Naw, nuke em! The only way to be sure.



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post #52 of 74
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Originally Posted by sLowEnd View Post
Like I said, filthy conditions can breed lots of bacteria, but it in itself can't breed resistant strains.
Actually it can. The only difference is in the selection. The basis of evolution is essentially that mutations occur very frequently. The favorable or non-harmful mutations are passed on, while natural selection weeds out the genes that are detrimental to survival.

Now, in a place where there is no antibiotic selection, there WILL be individuals who are resistant to certain antibiotics. However, The percentage of the population is so small, you probably wouldn't find them by randomly selecting. However, you add antibiotics to that population, and you select for those only with the antibiotic resistance. Therefore, as time goes on, the population will contain ONLY those that are resistant to the antibiotic you used.

On topic:

I remember reading about the NDM-1 outbreak a few months ago, I actually used it as a presentation for antibiotic resistances. Pretty scary stuff when there's a bacteria that's even resistant to carbapenems...
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post #53 of 74
That's expected since New Delhi has 13 million people living in slumps... Not really a new york city if you ask me.
    
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post #54 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxxa View Post
Something so nice you thought you'd post it twice?
I think the fall under the category of duh! Thought they knew this already from common sense, the dirtyier the enviroment the more resistant the parasites and bugs become.
Amazing. You simultaneously point out something as obvious and present the fact that you have no understanding of evolutionary theory from environmental pressures (natural selection). (Also you can't spell dirtier or environment).

Maybe if you people would stop saying how obvious everything is ("category of duh"??) and tried learning instead then we could finally get a generation of scientifically literate people...
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post #55 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by neobloodline View Post
Of course it can. Evolution is funny like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfeng91 View Post
Actually it can. The only difference is in the selection. The basis of evolution is essentially that mutations occur very frequently. The favorable or non-harmful mutations are passed on, while natural selection weeds out the genes that are detrimental to survival.

Now, in a place where there is no antibiotic selection, there WILL be individuals who are resistant to certain antibiotics. However, The percentage of the population is so small, you probably wouldn't find them by randomly selecting. However, you add antibiotics to that population, and you select for those only with the antibiotic resistance. Therefore, as time goes on, the population will contain ONLY those that are resistant to the antibiotic you used.

On topic:

I remember reading about the NDM-1 outbreak a few months ago, I actually used it as a presentation for antibiotic resistances. Pretty scary stuff when there's a bacteria that's even resistant to carbapenems...
Quote:
Originally Posted by neobloodline View Post
It has everything to do with their disgusting habits. Some people are just nasty. Just because there are millions of people with the same habits doesn't mean they aren't totally asking for a meltdown. If you live in filth all day every day and spread the bacteria and germs around on your bodies all day to everyone around you some interesting things happen.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/1..._n_776593.html

"It offers cheap, world-class medical care to Western tourists at private hospitals, yet has some of the worst child mortality and maternal death rates outside sub-Saharan Africa."

"There were more than 670 million cell phone connections in India by the end of August, a number that has been growing by close to 20 million a month, according to government figures.
Yet U.N. figures show that only 366 million Indians have access to a private toilet or latrine, leaving 665 million to defecate in the open."


"In Annabhau Sathe Nagar, a raised latrine of corrugated tin empties into a river of sewage that children splash in and adults wade across. The slum in east Mumbai has about 50,000 residents and a single toilet building, with 10 pay toilets for men and eight for women – two of which are broken."

"A large blue barrel outside a home is filled with murky brown water, tiny white worms and an aluminum drinking cup. "


-If people just keep ignoring their own health so they can have 2 cellphones they are obviously going to die out in a tornado of disease. If they are that dumb...
Ugh, my number 2 pet peeve. You 3 know just enough about a related topic to try and simplistically apply it to a far more complex issue. sLowEnd is right, you first 2 are very wrong.

Like he said, filthy conditions can breed lots of bacteria but can't in itself create anti-biotic resistant strains. Anti-biotics have to be introduced into the equation in order for bacteria to become resistant. What's occurring isn't evolution, it's adaptation.

If filthy conditions were all that was needed for resistant bacteria to grow, we'd never have found working anti-biotics in the first place.

Why don't you guys try researching a sex pili and then you'll get a better understanding of how bacteria can spread their resistances.
Edited by FuNkDrSpOt - 4/7/11 at 10:56pm
    
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post #56 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuNkDrSpOt View Post
Ugh, my number 2 pet peeve. You two know just enough about a related topic to try and simplistically apply it to a far more complex issue. sLowEnd is right, you two are very wrong.

Like he said, filthy conditions can breed lots of bacteria but can't in itself create anti-biotic resistant strains. Anti-biotics have to be introduced into the equation in order for bacteria to become resistant. What's occurring isn't evolution, it's adaptation.

If filthy conditions were all that was needed for resistant bacteria, we'd never have found working anti-biotics in the first place.
...How can it not? Different strains of bacteria arise from mutations. While transferring antibiotic resistance IS an adaptation, the initial gain of antibiotic resistance IS NOT an adaptation. Antibiotic resistance first comes from mutations in the bacteria's genome. In a population that is being selected for antibiotic resistance (e.g. the overuse of antibiotics in medicine today), this gene will most likely get transferred until your population is entirely resistant.
You also don't even need filthy conditions to have antibiotic resistant bacteria. I've had antibiotic resistant bacteria grow on simple agar plates, which is far from filthy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FuNkDrSpOt View Post
Why don't you guys try researching a sex pili and then you'll get a better understanding of how bacteria can spread their resistances.
I know what one is... How did bacteria initially acquire a resistance to antibiotics? I'll give you a hint - it wasn't the introduction of antibiotics.

EDIT:

Without selection, yes an entire population is unlikely to be antibiotic resistant. However, there will be a few that actually contain the gene. Because it does not harm the bacteria's way of life, it will not be selected against. However, once selection is applied, it is these few that will live. They will proliferate and the entire population will become resistant. Without the initial few resistant bacteria, then antibiotics would be 100% effective in killing them off.

I will concede this point though: filthy areas will increase the percentage of bacteria that are antibiotic resistant due to transduction, transformation, or conjugation. This can create additional strains of bacteria that are antibiotic resistant, compared to cleaner areas.
Edited by bfeng91 - 4/7/11 at 11:06pm
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post #57 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfeng91 View Post
...How can it not? Different strains of bacteria arise from mutations. While transferring antibiotic resistance IS an adaptation, the initial gain of antibiotic resistance IS NOT an adaptation.
Sure it is, just like some bacteria have adapted the number of pumps on their cell walls ( alcohol resistant ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfeng91 View Post
Antibiotic resistance first comes from mutations in the bacteria's genome.
No it really doesn't need to and in many cases, doesn't. Wiki: Sex pili

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfeng91 View Post
In a population that is being selected for antibiotic resistance (e.g. the overuse of antibiotics in medicine today), this gene will most likely get transferred until your population is entirely resistant.
You also don't even need filthy conditions to have antibiotic resistant bacteria. I've had antibiotic resistant bacteria grow on simple agar plates, which is far from filthy.
As stated before, you need exposure to anti-biotics for bacteria to develop a resistance in the first place, simply living in filth doesn't cut it. What sLowEnd and I stated before is that India's filthy living conditions COUPLED with their dangerously lax anti-biotic usage and Big Pharma chem dumps is what causes these situations.

Since some anti-biotics are naturally occuring, you're not doing any controlled sample, you have NO idea what bacteria you grew and since you used a regular agar instead of a blood agar, the bacteria you grew, most likely, isn't a native pathogen to humans, your experiment means little.



Quote:
Originally Posted by bfeng91 View Post
I know what one is... How did bacteria initially acquire a resistance to antibiotics? I'll give you a hint - it wasn't the introduction of antibiotics.

EDIT:

Without selection, yes an entire population is unlikely to be antibiotic resistant. However, there will be a few that actually contain the gene. Because it does not harm the bacteria's way of life, it will not be selected against. However, once selection is applied, it is these few that will live. They will proliferate and the entire population will become resistant. Without the initial few resistant bacteria, then antibiotics would be 100% effective in killing them off.

I will concede this point though: filthy areas will increase the percentage of bacteria that are antibiotic resistant due to transduction, transformation, or conjugation. This can create additional strains of bacteria that are antibiotic resistant, compared to cleaner areas.
You know how pathogenic bacteria generate resistance? 2 ways. Either a stupid doc prescribes anti-biotics for someone that doesn't need it and the patient's normal flora and fauna develops a resistance and passes it to a pathogen or by a pathogen living through the host using anti-biotics, likely b/c the patient stopped taking them too soon or didn't take them regularly.
Edited by FuNkDrSpOt - 4/7/11 at 11:14pm
    
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post #58 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuNkDrSpOt View Post
No it really doesn't need to and in many cases, doesn't. Wiki: Sex pili
I was not speaking in a general term. I am well aware of different methods in which resistance can be transferred between different bacteria, but where did that resistance originally come from?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FuNkDrSpOt View Post
As stated before, you need exposure to anti-biotics for bacteria to develop a resistance in the first place, simply living in filth doesn't cut it. What sLowEnd and I stated before is that India's filthy living conditions COUPLED with their dangerously lax anti-biotic usage and Big Pharma chem dumps is what causes these situations.
You do NOT need exposure to antibiotics for bacteria to develop resistance. As previously stated, I've grown chloramphenicol resistant E. coli on an agar plate before.

I am not debating that living in filth will increase the chances of antibiotic resistance spreading, nor that widely using antibiotics will increase your population percentage of antibiotic resistance. I am merely debating the fact that bacteria need to be first subjected to antibiotics for them to become resistant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FuNkDrSpOt View Post
Since some anti-biotics are naturally occuring, you're not doing any controlled sample, you have NO idea what bacteria you grew and since you used a regular agar instead of a blood agar, the bacteria you grew, most likely, isn't a native pathogen to humans, your experiment means little.
Why does my experiment mean little? They are still bacteria. Just because it is non-infectious does not mean that bacteria cannot spontaneously mutate and become resistant to antibiotics. E. coli is not necessarily a pathogen of humans, but certain strains of E. coli can cause sickness still.

I plated E. coli on simple agar and tested them on chloramphenicol, ampicillin, and tetracyclin plates. That good enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FuNkDrSpOt View Post
You know how pathogenic bacteria generate resistance? 2 ways. Either a stupid doc prescribes anti-biotics for someone that doesn't need it and the patient's normal flora and fauna develops a resistance and passes it to a pathogen or by a pathogen living through the host using anti-biotics, likely b/c the patient stopped taking them too soon or didn't take them regularly.
Yes I am also well aware of the fact that improper use of antibiotics has lead to an increase in antibiotic resistance. When you take antibiotics, the only bacteria that survive are those that are resistant. How did they get the resistance? 2 options: obtained through genetic uptake/exchange or mutation. Yes, if patients do not finish their course, the resistant bacteria can more effectively pass on their resistance. Yes multiple selections (antibiotic over-prescription) will cause bacteria to more rapidly become resistant.
Edited by bfeng91 - 4/7/11 at 11:31pm
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post #59 of 74
There are trillions more bugs than there are humans I think
post #60 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfeng91 View Post
I was not speaking in a general term. I am well aware of different methods in which resistance can be transferred between different bacteria, but where did that resistance originally come from?
I explained it in an edit to your edit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfeng91 View Post
You do NOT need exposure to antibiotics for bacteria to develop resistance. As previously stated, I've grown chloramphenicol resistant E. coli on an agar plate before.
And the E.Coli carried resistance because that particular strain had been exposed to antibiotics before. How is this not simple to understand?

Besides, Chloramphenicol, Tetracycline and ampicillin are practically naturally occurring! The drugs these bacteria are resistant to now are so toxic they can cause serious damage to the patient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfeng91 View Post
I am not debating that living in filth will increase the chances of antibiotic resistance spreading, nor that widely using antibiotics will increase your population percentage of antibiotic resistance. I am merely debating the fact that bacteria need to be first subjected to antibiotics for them to become resistant.
I really don't feel like spelling it out for you. Think about 4 things poking massive holes through your idea.

1. Antibiotic bacteria, recent occurrence
2. Human civilization, Ancient Egypt to 1930's US, dirty as hell
3. New resistances, not naturally occurring antibiotics

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfeng91 View Post
Why does my experiment mean little? They are bacteria all the same. Just because it is non-infectious does not mean that bacteria cannot spontaneously mutate and become resistant to antibiotics.
It can if it can live through enough of the attack or the antibiotics aren't strong enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfeng91 View Post
I plated E. coli on simple agar and tested them on chloramphenicol, ampicillin, and tetracyclin plates. That good enough?
What specific strain of E.Coli?
Edited by FuNkDrSpOt - 4/7/11 at 11:30pm
    
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