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[RE]Scientists find New Delhi residents constantly exposed to drug-resistant bacteria - Page 7

post #61 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by adjas View Post
if bugs trying to kill us they're doing a bad job, we're 6 billion strong and growing fast.

We're winning
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post #62 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by FuNkDrSpOt View Post
And the E.Coli carried resistance because that particular strain had been exposed to antibiotics before. How is this not simple to understand?

Besides, Chloramphenicol, Tetracycline and ampicillin are practically naturally occurring! The drugs these bacteria are resistant to now are so toxic they can cause serious damage to the patient.
Where is chloramphenicol produced naturally? Chloramphenicol doesn't cause damage to patients?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FuNkDrSpOt View Post
I really don't feel like spelling it out for you. Think about 4 things poking massive holes through your idea.

1. Antibiotic bacteria, recent occurrence
2. Human civilization, Ancient Egypt to 1930's US, dirty as hell
3. New resistances, not naturally occurring antibiotics
What's the 4th? Antibiotic bacteria is not that recent. Antibiotics were first developed by Flemming in the late 1920s I believe. Antibiotic resistance was then first found in the 1940s. Recently though, we've been seeing much more resistance due to, as it has been stated multiple times, mis- and over-use of antibiotics, rapidly selecting for resistant bacteria. These superbugs have arisen from combinations of several different resistances.

Human civilization being dirty does not mean that natural mutations for antibiotic resistance did not happen. Commercial use of antibiotics was not introduced, as I said, until the late 1920's. No selection for antibiotic resistances means that no antibiotic resistances were present? The more likely case is that these bacteria were present, but because of no selection, it was not as prevalent as today's population of bacteria is in regards to antibiotic resistance.

Just because it is a new resistance against a non-naturally occurring antibiotic does not mean that it cannot have happened from mutations. In fact, several different types of carbapenemases can be created by one or more point mutations within enzymes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FuNkDrSpOt View Post
It can if it can live through enough of the attack or the antibiotics aren't strong enough.
Why can't a few bacteria living inside your body have resistances to an antibiotic from natural mutations? I don't really understand your sentence in here, please clarify?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FuNkDrSpOt View Post
What specific strain of E.Coli?
E. Coli DH-5alpha.

EDIT:

Again, I am not trying to debate the role of antibiotics in the increased presence of antibiotic resistances in today's world. I am simply saying that antibiotic resistance CAN occur through mutations and that it does NOT need the presence of antibiotics first to develop. For my initial argument, I believe filth can increase the possibility of finding resistant stain. Filth, by itself, won't increase the frequency of resistance, but in combination with the medical system in India, it definitely contributes. If more and more resistant bacteria are introduced back into utilities needed by humans, then eventually many more of the bacteria will become resistant. If at all possible, I would also like to stop arguing. If you see holes in my argument, please PM me, as I am just extracting from my current experiences and still would like to learn.
Edited by bfeng91 - 4/8/11 at 12:16am
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post #63 of 74
The arrogance in that thread is astouding, some of you seem to think it's ok to nuke a country because the people living here don't follow your standard of hygiene and that seems ok with the mods while my post pointing out to the guy who said he thought we should cull 90% of the people on earth that he probably uses 10 times the ressources an Indian guy uses every day has been deleted, it probably was a lot more offensive that to advocate genocide I guess >_<
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post #64 of 74
Quote:
we should cull 90% of the people on earth
Is a fact.

Quote:
he probably uses 10 times the ressources an Indian guy uses every day
Indian guy would use too, if he just could afford that.

I'm not actually taking either side on this debate, go on...
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post #65 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by nvvit View Post
Is a fact.



Indian guy would use too, if he just could afford that.

I'm not actually taking either side on this debate, go on...
Of course he would, but you don't see him on OCN telling we should kill all the westerners who consumes the great majority of the earth's ressources and then complain that the earth is overpopulated and needs to be purged just so that they can continue to live their irresponsible lifestyle.
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post #66 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telimektar View Post
The arrogance in that thread is astouding, some of you seem to think it's ok to nuke a country because the people living here don't follow your standard of hygiene and that seems ok with the mods while my post pointing out to the guy who said he thought we should cull 90% of the people on earth that he probably uses 10 times the ressources an Indian guy uses every day has been deleted, it probably was a lot more offensive that to advocate genocide I guess >_<
Awww, geez. Telimektar, my comments had nothing to do with particular race, nationality, and/or standards of hygiene. I was just thinking out loud on what the fastest way of eliminating over 14 million people would be in case of dire biological hazard. (New Delhi metro area and environs) That's it, no more to it. How about this, seeing you put France as your location, how about we nuke Paris, to keep it fair? I mean, hypothetically speaking, in case of serious bacterial outbreak what the fastest way of eliminating the roughly 11 million denizens of Paris would be? Heck, New Delhi and Paris have nearly the same population size, although New Delhi is much more tightly packed.

Let's see, now that I think about it, Paris takes up nearly twice as much square mileage as New Delhi. Oh, Boy! We gonna need us more mega-tonnage!!! Say, 35-40 MT? Nah, make it even 50MT. Now, I like my warheads to be high yield, none of this 200-750 KT stuff. So, two simultaneous criss-crossing star pattern air bursts, each consisting of 6 (total 12) 2MT warheads. 24MT right there! Now for the topping? Say a single SS-18 MOD-6, aka Satan per NATO, courtesy of our Russian friends, carrying a single massive 20MT warhead, air-burst above downtown Paris at say 600M, around 2000 feet for our American friends. There ya go! Nearly 50MT worth of nuclear payload. Biological crisis averted! Millions, 11 to be precise, French with perfect hygienic practices ashified. Satisfied?


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post #67 of 74
I wasn't refering only to you Shaman.
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post #68 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telimektar View Post
The arrogance in that thread is astouding, some of you seem to think it's ok to nuke a country because the people living here don't follow your standard of hygiene and that seems ok with the mods while my post pointing out to the guy who said he thought we should cull 90% of the people on earth that he probably uses 10 times the ressources an Indian guy uses every day has been deleted, it probably was a lot more offensive that to advocate genocide I guess >_<
I would think the genocide comment was tongue in cheek towards the actual humanity but if you have a group of humans that are so dirty and nasty they threaten the human race as a whole then the other humans on the planet need to take action and eliminate the threat. You get it now? You have a growth of Necrotizing fasciitis on your arm you have to cut it off no matter how much you'd rather keep it. They seem to be able to afford 2 cell phones for every person in India (pakistan, parts of china etc.) but they CHOOSE not to spend that money on proper clean facilities and human care. That's just dumb. Everyone on the planet that has ever smelled a bathroom after someone used it knows you need soap and water after doing your business. I don't buy the excuse that they are just poor and ignorant. Dumb and irresponsible is closer to the truth I'd wager.

Value of the lesson : Never shake hands with a river pooper.

As far as evolution of harmful bacteria and germs is concerned.. all you need to introduce into a population of bacteria is a few "better" bacteria by mutation and you will see that population lasting longer and being stronger than the rest eventually causing the failure of the weaker group. Just the way it works. Not to mention.. there IS antibiotics being introduced to these people however sparingly. Bugs also evolve just from your body fighting them and the human population is forced to evolve with them to fight back. We do that by the resistant people being able to live through the new strains and passing on the genetics to the next generation. So on and so forth. By having all these tailored antibiotics we are increasingly moving out of the natural evolution process and entering an age of technological evolution which we will depend on to fight the new strains of bugs. Every time we save someone that is naturally weak to these strains we are slicing our own throats as a species.
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post #69 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfeng91 View Post
Where is chloramphenicol produced naturally? Chloramphenicol doesn't cause damage to patients?
Chloramphenicol is produced by bacteria, and it causes some harm but not in the same level that these new antibiotics do.



Quote:
Originally Posted by bfeng91 View Post
What's the 4th? Antibiotic bacteria is not that recent. Antibiotics were first developed by Flemming in the late 1920s I believe. Antibiotic resistance was then first found in the 1940s. Recently though, we've been seeing much more resistance due to, as it has been stated multiple times, mis- and over-use of antibiotics, rapidly selecting for resistant bacteria. These superbugs have arisen from combinations of several different resistances.

Human civilization being dirty does not mean that natural mutations for antibiotic resistance did not happen. Commercial use of antibiotics was not introduced, as I said, until the late 1920's. No selection for antibiotic resistances means that no antibiotic resistances were present? The more likely case is that these bacteria were present, but because of no selection, it was not as prevalent as today's population of bacteria is in regards to antibiotic resistance.
As long as their have been bacteria and fungus, there has been naturally occurring antibiotics.

And having varying levels of natural resistance to a toxin within a population of any species is quite a bit different than being practically immune to the same toxin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfeng91 View Post
Just because it is a new resistance against a non-naturally occurring antibiotic does not mean that it cannot have happened from mutations. In fact, several different types of carbapenemases can be created by one or more point mutations within enzymes.
Just a random chance mutation against a form of toxin that the bacterium has never before experienced? I don't think so.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bfeng91 View Post
Why can't a few bacteria living inside your body have resistances to an antibiotic from natural mutations? I don't really understand your sentence in here, please clarify?
The bacteria living inside your body develop an immunity to the antibiotics you take. Take a pharmacology class and you'll understand better.



Quote:
Originally Posted by bfeng91 View Post
E. Coli DH-5alpha.
I was going to research if this particular strain runs across the bacteria that creates Chloramphenicol naturally, but I just don't feel like wasting the time to prove a point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfeng91 View Post
Again, I am not trying to debate the role of antibiotics in the increased presence of antibiotic resistances in today's world. I am simply saying that antibiotic resistance CAN occur through mutations and that it does NOT need the presence of antibiotics first to develop. For my initial argument, I believe filth can increase the possibility of finding resistant stain. Filth, by itself, won't increase the frequency of resistance, but in combination with the medical system in India, it definitely contributes. If more and more resistant bacteria are introduced back into utilities needed by humans, then eventually many more of the bacteria will become resistant. If at all possible, I would also like to stop arguing. If you see holes in my argument, please PM me, as I am just extracting from my current experiences and still would like to learn.
My issue is that you seem to arguing my point with a rudimentary understanding of microbiology. I'd argue the point to you but first I'd have to teach you microbiology, pharmacology and Anatomy&Physiology first, and it's not worth it.
Edited by FuNkDrSpOt - 4/8/11 at 8:10pm
    
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post #70 of 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfeng91 View Post
Where is chloramphenicol produced naturally?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streptomyces_venezuelae

that's where

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfeng91 View Post
E. Coli DH-5alpha.
No. DH-5alpha is a harmless strain of bacteria used in laboratories to do routine experiments like cloning. I use it all the time in my research.
    
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