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Ask away! Your questions on current VRM(Voltage regulator module) Technology - Page 2

post #11 of 30
Thread Starter 
vdrop and vdroop are mechanism for keeping the CPU healthy in a sense. Ther eis a lot of debate over vdroop and its importance, but here is the real deal with it.

To keep the CPU in thermal spec, which for a i7 900 series is 130watts the voltage needs to drop to compensate for teh increase in current. Here is how it goes.

Wattage=votlage x current (P=IV)\\
At stock you have a VID, and for spec of the i7 900 series there is a 100amp stepup from idle to load, in extreme cases.

So at stock at idle you have about lets say 1.2v VID and 30 watt CPU so amperage is 30/1.2=25 amps. When the CPU is going to go under load, there will be a 100amp steup to something like 125amps in our case.

125amp x 1.2v is 150 watts. That is too high. So instead of dropping current, voltage is drooped in proportion to amperage increase. The voltage drops to 1.04v and current is at 125 amps and that gives you a 130 watt TDP.

To be honest that is just hypothetical, TDP is actually at 80% of true wattage for Intel.
My numbers are just a hypothetical situation, but you see it worked out nicely.


Anyways vdrop is just the difference between what you set in BIOS to what you get without vdroop. You will never get what you set, unless some type of LLC has been engaged.

Vdrop is part of every voltage on your motherboard, and can be very very small.
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post #12 of 30
I have an ASUS P8P67 WS Revolution MB with DIGI+ VRM. The settings include Load-Line Calibration, VRM Frequency, VRM Spread Spectrum, Phase Control, Duty Control, and CPU Current Capability.

Except for LLC these are all new to me. Maybe you can help explain some of these. I want to learn more so I can decide how to best setup my system.
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post #13 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PresNotSure View Post
I have an ASUS P8P67 WS Revolution MB with DIGI+ VRM. The settings include Load-Line Calibration, VRM Frequency, VRM Spread Spectrum, Phase Control, Duty Control, and CPU Current Capability.

Except for LLC these are all new to me. Maybe you can help explain some of these. I want to learn more so I can decide how to best setup my system.
VRM frequency= switching frequency which I explained earlier. How many times per second each phase turns on its MOSFETs for. Increasing this will heat up the VRM, somtimes too much, and it will reduce effiecncy.
You will gain less ripple, and less overshoot when the frequency is higher. i believe your max is 500khz, correct?

VRM spread spectrum reduce EMI emissions from your VRM, you should leave this on. ASUS likes to market their VRM, but spread spectrum is the same on every system, and this setting is left enabled. in the older days, disabling this helped with OC, now it doesn't. They put this setting in there because the FCC wanted it.

Phase control probably allows you to pick if the system uses less than one phase, or it automatically sets the PWM to a more strenuous mode, i need to know your settings.

Duty control, once again is one of their own settings, i need to know the options. but duty cycle is voltage out divided by voltage in, basically to control phases they have switching frequency and duty cycle. You can adjust the voltage with duty cycle, by changing the duty cycle and then it will fix the voltage to the proper proportion. I doubt they would give you control over the precise duty cycle, as you could screw your system. i need to know your settings. BTW Duty cycle is how the error voltage is fixed.

CPu current capability, its probably the max current allowed to the CPU. Probably like what is listed as TDC on other boards.
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post #14 of 30
Quote:
Well i was going to write a very large article encompassing everything. From duty cycle to transient responce, to different types of capcitors, to even how to do a vdroop mod. From electrical storage to everything. I am already in the process of already writing the whole article, its going to be pretty long. With examples of how things have changed. Like to different type of MOSFETs, to phase doublers. If you don't mind i wanted to use a lot of what I am saying in my reviews. If you want to link to my final thread that would be fine.
I'm sure it would be a fine addition to this site
Then we'll have VRM articles for both the Intel and AMD sections

My thread focuses a bit more on the dangers of inadequate VRMs with high TDP processors (i.e. AMD Phenom II 125W), so I guess there's an evident difference.
Actually I find that it's great to see that this site among all is becoming one to be more concerned about VRM design, motherboard choice, and safety. The more attention, the better, because for the most part it's still very, very underlooked
Edited by xd_1771 - 4/11/11 at 4:25pm
post #15 of 30
These are the options for each setting.

VRM Frequency - 300-500kHz
Phase Control - Regular, Medium, Fast, Ultra Fast
Duty Control - T. Probe (Thermal Balance) or Extreme (Current Balance)
CPU Current Capability - 100%-140%
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post #16 of 30
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by xd_1771 View Post
I'm sure it would be a fine addition to this site
Then we'll have VRM articles for both the Intel and AMD sections

My thread focuses a bit more on the dangers of inadequate VRMs with high TDP processors (i.e. AMD Phenom II 125W), so I guess there's an evident difference.
Actually I find that it's great to see that this site among all is becoming one to be more concerned about VRM design, motherboard choice, and safety. The more attention, the better, because for the most part it's still very, very underlooked
I agree about the site, and yea it would be like one per section. I just want to know exactly what people are most interested in. I read your article and it talks about exactly what you just stated. I enjoyed the read.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PresNotSure View Post
These are the options for each setting.

VRM Frequency - 300-500kHz
Phase Control - Regular, Medium, Fast, Ultra Fast
Duty Control - T. Probe (Thermal Balance) or Extreme (Current Balance)
CPU Current Capability - 100%-140%
Yup just as I thought. Settings the Duty Control to Extreme will help with transient responce as will increasing phase control to ultra fast and SF to 500khz. Current capability porabably is talking about short duration TDC, id set to 140% all the time.

To be honest controls like that have been around for a VERy long time in older Abit and DFI boards, the conclusion was that they don't really help at all, and the digital PWM will correctly set its own settings.

It can help OCing over 7ghz though, as you want to cut down the ripple as you gain closer to a voltage you just don't want to be going over. Unless you are on LN2 i would leave those settings be, your PWM is a chil vr12 controller and its pretty damn smart, so let it be.

I did hear one complaint though, and that is that you need to set switching frequency to 400 at least to get over 5.5ghz or something like that. I think its a single board issue though, isolated to ASUS p8p67 series, as the M4E doesn't have this problem, and the UD7 and all the GB boards have a 270khz switching frequency, and they can hit 5.89ghz lol. I also didn't hear about this for asrock or intel, or biostar, or foxconn and they all use the same PWM. I think its a bug with the BIS on your board. maybe its been fixed, but it was a recommendation by asus early on.
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post #17 of 30
What steps are being taken to prevent the VRM from polluting the AC neutral and electrical ground since recording and audiophile equipment require near perfect grounding and PWM's are notorious for dirtying AC neutral and ground ?
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post #18 of 30
Thread Starter 
I mentioned spread spectrum earlier, and it is basically a software was to reduce parasitic impedance which is what causes the large amount of noise.

It really depends on the design of the VRC(voltage regulator circuit). From the input capacitor ESR/ESL all the way to how far and close the driver and FETs are, to how the LC(inductor/capacitor) circuit is design, and what components it uses. Even more important, and what make even a bigger difference, is spacing on the PCB>

The basic design guideline for VRC is to minimize the distance between components that have high switching losses and parasitics, and by doing this to hopefully cut down on the amount of noise and EMI. in teh very old days they used to use diodes as drivers, so switch the MOSFETs, now they use drivers, and now they use DrMOS, where the driver is integrated. This was done for one main concern, to cut down the driving signal's path, and remove its pathway from the PCB. Other than that, many companies(well just two GIGABYTE, ASUS) use 2oz copper opposed to the standard 1oz in their PCBs. The extra copper is put into the ground and power planes, and each power plane is cut into small islands(and new recommend guidelines has the VRC circuit not only on its own island, but also surrounded by extra PCB to protect other components).


You know what i find funny technology i just heard about was?
Because of the difference in grounds around the motherboard, some new PWMs have the ability to detect those grounds via remote sense, and then make their own ground match the remote grounds.

Of course there is no AC voltage on the motherboard other than MOSFET characteristics, but I would think that the main power supply, the AC/DC SMPS(switching mode power supply) would pollute your ground more. It has its own PWM, but not one half as complex as on for a synchronous interleaved rectified buck converter. To be honest i know nothing about audio equipment other than what i did my review on the creative integration on the G1 Assassin., I found that it was given its own power supply(VRM/VRC) a single phase 4A, with a PWM/Driver/MOSFETs in one type deal and it has two inductors and two capacitors(high quality too).
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post #19 of 30
Yes I agree that the powersupply should technically keep the ac return clean, but I was thinking that the power supply designers might not be keeping up with these high freq PWMs we are seeing on MB's now.

Also with high sampling rate asynchrous USB digital transports (which are the rage now for computer audiopiles) the ground has to be shared with computer's USB line (but it is decoupled after conversion to spdif.) Of course there are people who swear an old PIII laptop's USB port sound better than a modern desktop's, I've never been one to believe that but with your info I can see some science behind it.

Thanks for the informative post. Do you mind if I post a link to this thread in a few of the computer audio forums? This is very interesting stuff.
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post #20 of 30
Thread Starter 
yea sure, in a day or two i will have up my review of the X58A-OC and it explain SMPS DC/DC design and how high switching frequency is dealt with and implemented. There will be a lot of good info in there.
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