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Need help on forcing 3D clocks on my GTX 460 (to fix stuttering issue) - Page 6  

post #51 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Am*;13246810 
The average FPS and especially the maximum I'm getting is well above that which I used to get with my 2900XT/8800GT. If I followed your theory on it being a bottleneck, it wouldn't make any sense why for 99% of the time I play, say L4D2 I get no lag or stutter whatsoever (frame rate is between 45-90FPS like 90% of time)

GPU usage shouldn't be a problem, I run all my games at highest graphical settings with highest AA/AF levels with some exceptions (Crysis for example). Before with say my 8800GT, I could never go past 4XAA in a lot of games, now I can run 16XAA with driver-forced effects on top without the card even breaking a sweat.

You asked what GPU program I ran to check clocks of a card without drivers, and it was just GPU-Z (some old version, don't remember which revision, sorry). It just stated the clock rate and memory, everything else was either blank or unknown from what I remember.

As for how powerful this card is compared to my older GPUs, that is still irrelevant. If the card is not being maxed enough, I put more AA/AF and other effects or force some in drivers.

Since you said it doesn't affect you when you play your games, maybe it's because your GPU doesn't undervolt when it goes to 3D low power mode (the GPU seems to decide this by itself as well). I logged it during a game of Killing Floor and the worst part is when the GPU undervolts itself, then seems to realise the load is too much for it to be in low-power mode and volts/clocks it back up, and this repeats, rendering the game unplayable (pretty much).

I get what you're saying, and had I been talking about this issue in a different game I would consider it to be applicable. Here, in this case, I don't see how it is relevant.

EDIT: as for the XP not being able to run GPUs at full power is incorrect. Windows 7 uses different system files and can use GPUs with loads of shaders MORE EFFICIENTLY than XP due to using a different GPU hardware acceleration technique (which is why some newer games perform better on 7 than on XP with same hardware specs, see Win7 vs XP gaming comparisons for this), but this has nothing to do with setting clock rates. If Nvidia or Microsoft spouted somewhere that XP can't enforce default clock rates then that's complete BS that they want people to believe to have an excuse not to support that operating system any longer to save themselves some money. Whether it's XP, Vista or 7, what clocks the card runs at is entirely dependent on what mode the drivers dictate the BIOS on the card to switch to. Nvidia are already dropping most XP support for OEM notebooks, I bet they're itching to do the same for their retail products.

First off, it's entirely possible to be playing a game and not be CPU bottlenecked 99% of the time, but have a BN that kicks in 1% of the time, when some particular thing happens in the game that's esp. CPU-intensive. If it's severe enough, it could cause your gpu usage to fall low enough that the card drops to low-power 3d during these occasions.

But again, as I've said since the beginning ... I'm not telling you that a CPU BN is 'the problem', all I'm trying to explain is why you repeatedly got people telling you 'cpu bottleneck' in the beginning of the thread. Your cpu *is* underpowered for that card for one thing, and for another, the symptoms described wherein your card keeps downclocking to low-power 3d mode ... that is *EXACTLY* what happens with a severe CPU bottleneck, in the generic sense.

Granted, it's also possible to get the same effect by the game using up too much vram, or a buggy driver/game relationship (as seems to be the case with Killing Floor for you), but CPU BN is absolutely the first logical thing to suspect based on your early posts on this thread.

The fact that you're saying 'gpu usage shouldn't be a problem' indicates that you aren't actually monitoring it, correct? You should definitely be using AB on-screen display to do so while gaming. The card should NOT be downclocking unless the GPU usage is low. If it is downclocking even with loads over about 40%, then the card itself probably has a problem. Either that, or the XP drivers are so screwed up that they're totally useless, and therefore it's a sign that it's time to join the rest of the gaming world using Windows 7 thumb.gif

You should also monitor vram usage in the same fashion (AB OSD), because you don't have a card w/such a plethora of vram that you don't need to worry about it.

BTW, 'driver forced effects' very often do not work, and can even cause problems with how games run/function. I've seen games where using 'enhance application settings' and forcing any level of AA would actually cause AA to be disabled in the game (although in-game AA alone worked perfect). 'Forced AA' doesn't work a hell of a lot more often than it does.

Point being, until you get this particular issue sorted out, I highly recommend using only in-game AA settings and the like. And you should monitor your GPU and vram usage, and all the other stats, in the AB OSD. As I think I've mentioned, this tool is INVALUABLE when it comes to troubleshooting GPU issues thumb.gif

Lastly, I'm just telling you what I read on the XP thing. I know that the card itself has a built-in mechanism to detect GPU load, and set the volts and clocks according to the load it has on it.

What I believe is 'the issue' w/XP is that they (meaning nV) cannot program the XP drivers to override the cards own built-in programming that does this 'downclocking on low GPU load' automatically. So that's why the option isn't there in NVCP.

No offense intended here, but I sorta doubt that you personally know enough about how the whole thing works to make the kind of proclamations on this subject that you're making biggrin.gif but if it makes you feel better to envision yourself as the victim of some conspiracy, far be it from me to disabuse you of this notion. Fact is, I don't know enough about it to tell you that you're wrong ... alls I know is what I read wink.gif
Edited by brettjv - 4/24/11 at 12:26pm
    
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post #52 of 60
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sublimejhn;13251828 
He posted a modified BIOS for you, you don't even need to modify anything. Just use his BIOS and nvflash and you're good to go
Quote:
Originally Posted by ratbuddy;13252306 
There's an option in the menus for Fermi clocks and volts. Don't change anything you don't fully understand.

I'm trying to follow the forum guides that everyone else followed to at least check the clocks. Until this thing (NiBitor) displays my clocks/specs correctly I'm not going to use it, the last thing I want to do is to brick or fry my card because either it mis-read something during transfer or if some BIOS protection crap kicked in during the flash, rendering my working card useless. I really appreciate that you've modded it for me but I just want some extra re-assurance from the software that it's working properly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brettjv;13255544 
First off, it's entirely possible to be playing a game and not be CPU bottlenecked 99% of the time, but have a BN that kicks in 1% of the time, when some particular thing happens in the game that's esp. CPU-intensive. If it's severe enough, it could cause your gpu usage to fall low enough that the card drops to low-power 3d during these occasions.

But again, as I've said since the beginning ... I'm not telling you that a CPU BN is 'the problem', all I'm trying to explain is why you repeatedly got people telling you 'cpu bottleneck' in the beginning of the thread. Your cpu *is* underpowered for that card for one thing, and for another, the symptoms described wherein your card keeps downclocking to low-power 3d mode ... that is *EXACTLY* what happens with a severe CPU bottleneck, in the generic sense.

Granted, it's also possible to get the same effect by the game using up too much vram, or a buggy driver/game relationship (as seems to be the case with Killing Floor for you), but CPU BN is absolutely the first logical thing to suspect based on your early posts on this thread.

The fact that you're saying 'gpu usage shouldn't be a problem' indicates that you aren't actually monitoring it, correct? You should definitely be using AB on-screen display to do so while gaming. The card should NOT be downclocking unless the GPU usage is low. If it is downclocking even with loads over about 40%, then the card itself probably has a problem. Either that, or the XP drivers are so screwed up that they're totally useless, and therefore it's a sign that it's time to join the rest of the gaming world using Windows 7 thumb.gif

You should also monitor vram usage in the same fashion (AB OSD), because you don't have a card w/such a plethora of vram that you don't need to worry about it.

BTW, 'driver forced effects' very often do not work, and can even cause problems with how games run/function. I've seen games where using 'enhance application settings' and forcing any level of AA would actually cause AA to be disabled in the game (although in-game AA alone worked perfect). 'Forced AA' doesn't work a hell of a lot more often than it does.

Point being, until you get this particular issue sorted out, I highly recommend using only in-game AA settings and the like. And you should monitor your GPU and vram usage, and all the other stats, in the AB OSD. As I think I've mentioned, this tool is INVALUABLE when it comes to troubleshooting GPU issues thumb.gif

Lastly, I'm just telling you what I read on the XP thing. I know that the card itself has a built-in mechanism to detect GPU load, and set the volts and clocks according to the load it has on it.

What I believe is 'the issue' w/XP is that they (meaning nV) cannot program the XP drivers to override the cards own built-in programming that does this 'downclocking on low GPU load' automatically. So that's why the option isn't there in NVCP.

No offense intended here, but I sorta doubt that you personally know enough about how the whole thing works to make the kind of proclamations on this subject that you're making biggrin.gif but if it makes you feel better to envision yourself as the victim of some conspiracy, far be it from me to disabuse you of this notion. Fact is, I don't know enough about it to tell you that you're wrong ... alls I know is what I read wink.gif

1. I've already stated multiple times before that it has absolutely nothing related to on-screen action when it STUTTERS (NOT LAGS), there could be a small horde on screen or nothing except the 4 survivors and I would get stutter for like 10-15 seconds, then it would go back to normal, and as I've also stated before, I have yet to run into this in an offline/single player campaign in L4D2.

2. I'm not gonna update a single core PC with some unsupported hardware to an OS as bloated as Windows 7 because whatever performance gain I will get in regards to the GPU, I will lose at least twice as much from this OS hogging my CPU. I already have a budget set aside for my next build specifically for gaming on Windows 7 when I will find enough new tech has come out to make me want to upgrade (like 8-12 core CPUs, PCI-Express 3.0, quad channel IMCs etc) and this rig was re-built mainly to let me dig out the old games I have and to max them without any compatibility problems. I can live with a bunch of new games not running as they should, though I am definitely trying/looking for a workaround such as a BIOS flash.

3. At 1440x900 and with the DX9/OpenGL-only games that I'm running, my VRAM is the last thing I'm worried about.

4. I very much doubt the card has any 3D throttling tech built into the hardware or BIOS of the card, as this wouldn't explain why a mate of mine (who is pretty much a Linux guru) got some games running better in Ubuntu under Wine than they do now in XP on this same PC, with no clocking down/throttling whatsoever on this very same GPU.

5. I'm fully aware of what problems driver-forced effects can have, and I tried both default settings and custom profiles. From what I've seen, driver forced settings can improve performance considerably in some newer games.

6. Finally, I also doubt you know enough about this either, since neither of us are Nvidia engineers/programmers we can't talk at a more technical level about this tongue.gif, we can throw this argument around till the cows come home. All I know is 200 series Nvidia GPUs during release had the same problem, and after enough time has passed since (and worthwhile driver updates for the cards stopped), 3rd party apps have managed to work around ways to force the card stay in 3D clocks, even in XP. Newer drivers seem to disable features like this and restrict this sort of access to the cards more and more, and my friend who used to run a GTX 280 told me this (I also used his card a few times, I noticed this as well).

Anyway, I'm gonna look for some more guides on BIOS flashing to maybe find something I'm not getting now or whatnot. I will post back here soon.
Edited by Am* - 4/24/11 at 5:02pm
    
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post #53 of 60
Dude.. I already told you.. Look for "Fermi Clocks" in the Nibitor menu. You're making this more complicated than it has to be.
post #54 of 60
You keep saying how you've explained this and that multiple times, but at the point that you got all irritated with people telling you the problem was a CPU BN ... you hadn't said all these things.

In fact, had you even said once prior to your last post that you were talking about 15-20 second stutters ... that would've put to the rest the idea that this issue was a CPU BN.

So, for like the fourth time, I'm not telling you the problem IS a cpu bottleneck. What I'm telling you is: the symptoms as you described them in the beginning of this thread, based on the info that you had provided at that point ... people's assessment of CPU BN made perfect sense.

And I'm going recommend to you once again that you monitor your GPU usage with Afterburner, because you are going to encounter cpu bottlenecking with that rig. Just because that's not the problem 'so far' doesn't mean it's not going to happen down the line. A cpu bottleneck will cause low GPU usage, and low (enough) GPU usage will cause the card to downclock. So if we presume that 'the problem' is the downclocking, then your GPU usage will be something you'll want to keep an eye on.

However, as it stands now based on what you've shared, I'm betting that your card is downclocking in response to something else that is messing up. IOW, the downclocking is a symptom of the problem, rather than being 'the problem'. Not sure what it is, but I'm guessing that it's related to the XP drivers just not working reliably with the newest hardware. And probably online games are the most likely to expose the problem(s).

Also ... I think you'd be surprised how well Windows 7 runs even on older hardware. It's really not the bloated CPU hog you imagine it to be. It does eat up a lot more ram than XP, though, that is true. But you are certainly not going to lose 1/2 your performance outside of games.

The mechanism the card uses to sense GPU load and increase clocks in response is definitely built into the card's bios. Once you get into the bios and see all the power levels, consisting of the clocks and the voltages it's going to run at the various gpu load levels, it will become apparent to you that this is the case. How much the driver is involved I'm not entirely sure, but the system of changing clocks based on load is most definitely NOT a 100% driver-based thing.

If your friend figured out how to override the downclocking in Ubuntu, that's awesome. Apparently the Linux driver supports this feature. It's still built into the card ... but it can be overridden at the driver level.

Lastly ... Nibitor works perfectly with your bios. You have to use the special section for Fermi Clocks though.
Edited by brettjv - 4/24/11 at 11:50pm
    
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post #55 of 60
wow the other thread he made got closed, dude it was a senior moderator and IF he says that CPU bottleneck is THE issue, then you know, LISTEN to them since they know clearly what the problem is.
     
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post #56 of 60
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChronoBodi;13297003 
wow the other thread he made got closed, dude it was a senior moderator and IF he says that CPU bottleneck is THE issue, then you know, LISTEN to them since they know clearly what the problem is.

If you're gonna troll/stalk my threads, do it via PM please. brett and ratbuddy are the only ones helping so far, and SpeedNugget for his funny/silly yet somehow working suggestion (whom I will rep later when I find a permanent fix for this), (with a few other people who tried to help at the start as well). Or make your own "off-topic crap I didn't ask about" thread and take the discussion there. I'm glad the other thread got closed, I'd rather get 2 responses from helpful people than 20 ignorant a-holes acting like experts because they can state the obvious (which I got plenty of on that thread).
Edited by Am* - 4/27/11 at 4:55pm
    
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post #57 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Am*;13084943 
I'm using my 460 in my sig rig with Windows XP.

I've tried looking at the driver settings and changing Power Management Mode, but I can only set it to Adaptive for some reason (doesn't give me any other options in the menu). Also tried changing profiles in Afterburner, which did nothing whatsoever.

I don't care if it increases power usage or whatever. I just want it to run at 100% clocks all the time on my gaming partition, since right now it is stuttering in an awful lot of games due to downclocking when it shouldn't. Is there some sort of hack I can use on the drivers to force 3D clocks? I would be very grateful for a solution to this, especially if I don't have to use 3rd party resource-hogging crap like Afterburner.

confirm you have properly cleaned the old drivers (check my sig), but unfortunately you are going to be a tad bottlenecked by your awesome processor, as well as slow bus speed not fully utilizing 16x PCI-e slot despite it stating you running at 16x.
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post #58 of 60
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greensystemsgo;13297981 
confirm you have properly cleaned the old drivers (check my sig), but unfortunately you are going to be a tad bottlenecked by your awesome processor, as well as slow bus speed not fully utilizing 16x PCI-e slot despite it stating you running at 16x.

Thanks, but although I've switched between a few driver sets on this partition, it was a clean install with 266.58 (I think) to begin with. It just started after last 250 drivers, I think it will have to be either a trick like OpenGL program in the background or BIOS flash as a fix for this, I'll see how long I can put up with this and look for a different method.
    
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post #59 of 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greensystemsgo;13297981 
Unfortunately you are going to be a tad bottlenecked by your awesome processor, as well as slow bus speed not fully utilizing 16x PCI-e slot despite it stating you running at 16x.

this ^ time to remove some of the bottlenecks, I would say a little more then a tad though.
post #60 of 60
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pioneerisloud;13298081 
My good god dude! How many freaking threads do you need to get it through your thick skull that a CPU from 2003 is holding back a GPU from 2011?

PM'ing a mod to have this thread closed too.

How many responses do you need to get it through YOUR thick skull, to eff off, permanently, from any future threads I make?

Also PM-ing a mod to delete any more crap you decide to post.
    
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