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post #11 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lichking View Post
you also have some flow issues on the back sides of each pin also, so I really don't know that you gain that much. Like I said before, I've tested both theses designs, and I didn't see any performance gains with the pins, for the work involved in building that type of plate.. I think that pin plate took about 8-10 hours on the mill, and channel wise about 30 minutes.
Well that's just it, since I'm not going to be milling it, I don't know that it would be any harder to do.

Though I can't really say until I've tried.


~ Just did a test on a bit of aluminium scrap I had lying about and Phew! does that generate some heat. Going back parallel to already cut lines though is very fast by comparison, so I'll at least give it a go.

Aluminium is cheap as hell anyway, so if it goes wrong I can afford to make mistakes, unlike copper.
    
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post #12 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabid View Post
Well that's just it, since I'm not going to be milling it, I don't know that it would be any harder to do.

Though I can't really say until I've tried.


~ Just did a test on a bit of aluminium scrap I had lying about and Phew! does that generate some heat. Going back parallel to already cut lines though is very fast by comparison, so I'll at least give it a go.

Aluminium is cheap as hell anyway, so if it goes wrong I can afford to make mistakes, unlike copper.
ya.. have fun with it.. A few other things to consider.. moving the bolts away from your metal. Inevitably you end up with heat transfer putting bolts through your metal. Also from tec to tec, the heights are not always the same. Thats one of the big reasons I got away from laying tecs on the same plates. I've found it easier to lap single tec plates then to try to get 2 or 3 tecs to clamp to the plates and have a good TIM imprint. If you do this make sure you have the manufacturer lap your tecs to the same height. If not you could end up cracking the ceramics on one or more of your tecs

here is my 2x50mm for an example I spent about an hour a piece on just lapping each of these plates notice I have no bolts going through my metal and the plates actually float against the gaskets so you don't have any issues with cracking tecs as you torque the bolts down.

One other thing, you might consider nickle plating vs copper plating.


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post #13 of 18
For hotside block design, you should look towards the top performing CPU waterblocks and follow their designs - minimal thickness blocks with micro channels and some form of water flow speed control seems to be the winning combination.


Edit: I'd use your PGA block design for the coldside though, using 2 of those blocks with 1 TEC centered per block for improved thermal transfer efficiency per TEC


Edit 2: I'll let you in on a little TEC chiller trick I came up with over xmas

Rather then bolt your TEC chiller together with bolts going through both the hotside and coldside waterblocks, the trick is to make the hotside and coldside delrin tops overhang the waterblocks by 10mm on each edge.

Then bolt the hotside delrin top to the coldside delrin top (the bolts will be outside the waterblocks but still clamping the waterblocks together) - that way you all but limit any thermal transfer between the hotside and coldside water blocks
Edited by un-nefer - 4/17/11 at 2:29am
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post #14 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by un-nefer View Post
For hotside block design, you should look towards the top performing CPU waterblocks and follow their designs - minimal thickness blocks with micro channels and some form of water flow speed control seems to be the winning combination.


Edit: I'd use your PGA block design for the coldside though, using 2 of those blocks with 1 TEC centered per block for improved thermal transfer efficiency per TEC


Edit 2: I'll let you in on a little TEC chiller trick I came up with over xmas

Rather then bolt your TEC chiller together with bolts going through both the hotside and coldside waterblocks, the trick is to make the hotside and coldside delrin tops overhang the waterblocks by 10mm on each edge.

Then bolt the hotside delrin top to the coldside delrin top (the bolts will be outside the waterblocks but still clamping the waterblocks together) - that way you all but limit any thermal transfer between the hotside and coldside water blocks

Well, I'm glad I asked... If I go for a thin design I can do it in copper since 3mm thick copper isn't so expensive.

I had thought though the thickness was desirable to stop the base bending to be able to apply equal pressure across the TEC. I can solve that by providing sturdy tops though.

For my cold block, I have to admit, I was planning a (kind of) channelled design lol.

Because it will be chilled from top and bottom I was going to have the top hang down with fins to achieve the same surface area as the bottom.


When it comes down to it all, I think I'm just going to have to have a little play
    
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post #15 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabid View Post
Well, I'm glad I asked... If I go for a thin design I can do it in copper since 3mm thick copper isn't so expensive.
3mm might be too thing. The base of the XSPC Rasa waterblock is around 5mm think and the it uses micro fin design and is one of the best waterblocks out atm.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabid View Post
I had thought though the thickness was desirable to stop the base bending to be able to apply equal pressure across the TEC. I can solve that by providing sturdy tops though.
That is another reason to use the "tops" to bolt everything together outside of the copper waterblocks.

ie. (please excuse the rudimentary sketch, it is more to show what I mean by "outside the waterblocks"):


Quote:
Originally Posted by Crabid View Post
For my cold block, I have to admit, I was planning a (kind of) channelled design lol.

Because it will be chilled from top and bottom I was going to have the top hang down with fins to achieve the same surface area as the bottom.
It is easier to remove heat then chill. So if you are planning a sandwich setup (ie. waterblock/TEC/waterblock/TEC/waterblock), instead of "chilling" from the top and bottom (ie. having the coldside of the TECs on the top and bottom of the middle waterblock) you should flip them around so they each chill their own waterblock and use the middle waterblock to remove the heat.

So the basic layout would be:
top -> waterblock <- TEC coldside/TEC hotside -> waterblock <- TEC hotside/TEC coldside -> waterblock <- top

This way, the coldsides of the TECs each chill water in their own waterblock for maximum surface area and improved cooling. The hotsides of the TECs will both use the same waterblock (on either sides) as it iis easier to move heat from hot to cold.
Edited by un-nefer - 4/17/11 at 4:31am
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post #16 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by un-nefer View Post

It is easier to remove heat then chill. So if you are planning a sandwich setup (ie. waterblock/TEC/waterblock/TEC/waterblock), instead of "chilling" from the top and bottom (ie. having the coldside of the TECs on the top and bottom of the middle waterblock) you should flip them around so they each chill their own waterblock and use the middle waterblock to remove the heat.

So the basic layout would be:
top -> waterblock <- TEC coldside/TEC hotside -> waterblock <- TEC hotside/TEC coldside -> waterblock <- top

This way, the coldsides of the TECs each chill water in their own waterblock for maximum surface area and improved cooling. The hotsides of the TECs will both use the same waterblock (on either sides) as it iis easier to move heat from hot to cold.
I have never liked the "sandwich" idea. The internal waterblock that's used to transfer heat from will not be solid, and instead be made from two separate plates. These will be difficult to thermally bond, and will be fixed using bolts or screws. I personally think this will hinder performance, and instead would benefit more from using one Tc block and one Th block.

Personally, I would just insulate the Tc waterblock, Tubing and CPU waterblock to decrease inefficiencies.
post #17 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by xtremetechuk View Post
I have never liked the "sandwich" idea. The internal waterblock that's used to transfer heat from will not be solid, and instead be made from two separate plates. These will be difficult to thermally bond, and will be fixed using bolts or screws.
It all depends on the design tbh.

The design I am working on atm is similar to what Mindchill was testing (before he was banned from OCN), which is a sandwich design - but the internal/middle waterblock consists of just two copper plates with a piece of milled delrin between them both - the screws/bolts that join these two waterblocks don't need to be isolated because it is still a single hotside block - just with two "faces"

Edit: Here is a pic of Mindchill's 4x40mm TEC chiller design. I'll be using a very similar internal/middle Th block design - but I'd like more substantial Tc waterblocks, similar to Crabid and Lichking's designs


And here are his results using his design on his Intel i7 920 @ 3.7Ghz rig running Prime95:


Quote:
Originally Posted by xtremetechuk View Post
I personally think this will hinder performance, and instead would benefit more from using one Tc block and one Th block.
There is always some give and take when it comes to things like this. If you want a compact design that will fit inside a PC case and still look good, the "sandwich" design is the best IMO.

But even using a "sandwich" design, as long as the internal/middle Th waterblock is well designed, it really shouldn't effect overall performance that much. As long as your Th waterblock uses a similar design to the better performing CPU waterblocks, then it will perform well.

Also understand that even though the internal/middle Th waterblock is used for both TECs, each "face" combined with the delrin between, is in actuality its very own waterblock, so I dont see it would harm performance any more then having separate Th waterblocks

Quote:
Originally Posted by xtremetechuk View Post
Personally, I would just insulate the Tc waterblock, Tubing and CPU waterblock to decrease inefficiencies.
For sure, this should be done at a minimum by anyone using a TEC chiller

All I really need now are a couple of good coldside waterblocks - I'm going to have to hit Crabid or lichking up for a couple like the ones they have designed I recon
Edited by un-nefer - 4/17/11 at 7:05am
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post #18 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by un-nefer View Post
It all depends on the design tbh.

The design I am working on atm is similar to what Mindchill was testing (before he was banned from OCN), which is a sandwich design - but the internal/middle waterblock consists of just two copper plates with a piece of milled delrin between them both - the screws/bolts that join these two waterblocks don't need to be isolated because it is still a single hotside block - just with two "faces"

Edit: Here is a pic of Mindchill's 4x40mm TEC chiller design. I'll be using a very similar internal/middle Th block design - but I'd like more substantial Tc waterblocks, similar to Crabid and Lichking's designs


And here are his results using his design on his Intel i7 920 @ 3.7Ghz rig running Prime95:



There is always some give and take when it comes to things like this. If you want a compact design that will fit inside a PC case and still look good, the "sandwich" design is the best IMO.

But even using a "sandwich" design, as long as the internal/middle Th waterblock is well designed, it really shouldn't effect overall performance that much. As long as your Th waterblock uses a similar design to the better performing CPU waterblocks, then it will perform well.

Also understand that even though the internal/middle Th waterblock is used for both TECs, each "face" combined with the delrin between, is in actuality its very own waterblock, so I dont see it would harm performance any more then having separate Th waterblocks


For sure, this should be done at a minimum by anyone using a TEC chiller

All I really need now are a couple of good coldside waterblocks - I'm going to have to hit Crabid or lichking up for a couple like the ones they have designed I recon
I want the whole unit to fit inside my case, trouble is of course... it wont lol

So I'm going to give my case a minimum 12" vertical extension then house all the TEC gear in that.

I want the TEC loop up and running first though, just to make sure I know what needs to fit in there.
    
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