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3GB GTX 580 or 1.5GB sufficient on U3011 2560x1600 maxxing AA whenever possible? - Page 3

post #21 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by windfire;13194266 
In addition to Palit and Gainward having a 3GB model, Inno3D have also released and is selling their 3GB version. EVGA is also releasing theirs in this week, IIRC. And Zotac is also releasing 2 versions (with reference and non reference cooling solutions. Pic below shows non reference cooling).

So, if your buying time frame is the next couple months, you will have more choices.

Inno3D pics: (post #4)
http://www.overclock.net/nvidia/979758-gtx-580-3gb-sli-benchies.html

Is it me, or does the zotac look like it uses 3 slots?
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post #22 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Versa;13195139 
Is it me, or does the zotac look like it uses 3 slots?

It does look like 3 slots, much like the Asus 3 slot monster.
 
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post #23 of 102
Thread Starter 
WOW! Thanks for all the contributions in this thread! I guess this is indeed a pressing issue for some of us pushing higher res of 4Megapixels and beyond, so I'm happy to hear from everyone, and hope this thread can perhaps continue to build itself with more screenshots on vram usage at the various resolutions in certain games to act as references for others concerned about this topic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CallsignVega;13192440 
I've tested on a single 30" Metro with 4x AA reaching 2GB. 1.5GB will not cut it, especially for future games with high image quality.


Thanks for the insight. Great to hear from the man himself. I do have a further question about those 3GB Palit cards you're using. In your thread over at [H], you mentioned that the new 'full cover' EK blocks for non reference GTX 580s fit your cards with the exception of those small chips at the end of the cards. Those chips were in contact with the stock cooler, and you said when you touched the chips at idle (or was it load, can't remember) it wasn't comfortable to keep you finger there for more than 5 seconds.

I'm asking because I am leaning toward the 3GB GTX 580 route, but not conclusively yet until we hopefully get to see more screenshots from other users smile.gif. What did you end up doing to cool those chips not covered by the block?

Also, how would you rate the Palit's cooling on that 3GB card? The decision to go water over stock would need to be a strong one, such as temps reaching over 70 if lightly OCed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain;13193745 
Since this thread is till going, IT really depends on the game you play, Crysis with some AA, Metro2033, high end Oblivion mods, maybe GTAIV with the new shadows patch, and DA2 with the HQ texture pack installed, definitely can give you some VRAM limitation. Majority of other titles probably will not.

Both of these games are @ 5760x1080 (max in game settings) Crysis has 0xAA.


Devil May Cry 4 has 16xCQAA and max settings.


The reason the frame rate is low in Crysis and indeed lower in Devil May Cry 4 than what Afterburner is reading (by about 30fps) is because I have two applications recording screenshots at the same time. My PNG files uncompressed from MSI Burner are too high to upload. Steam takes compressed JPGs, and when they both go off at the same time, the second image taken has lower FPS, which is usually the STEAM one.

Crysis is about 10fps higher, and DMC4 is hard to tell, usually around 200fps.

For 1920x1080 resolution, nothing comes close to using all 1.5GB except maybe DA2 and that I suspect will be refined with nVidia driver optimizations. I personally believe that at 1600 resolution, you will be closer to the 1.5GB barrier when using 4x/8x/16xAA. I believe most titles would run perfectly adequate at 2xAA, like I said and have shown it depends on the game you are playing.

Now all that being said, if I was going with a completely new setup, I don't see 3GB as necessary, but I would choose a 3GB model over a 1.5GB model. These cards are the type of cards you could keep for a generation or two and still be running games great and no matter how you spin it, 3GB is more future proof than 1.5GB. Just the way it is.

Here is the infamous Metro2033, all settings maxed, 5760x1080xAAA vs 1920x1080x4AA vs 1920x1080xAAA, check out the memory usage. You would be surprised.

Thanks for that post RagingCain. Conclusive evidence really solidifies prior contemplations. But I just want to clarify, in your OSD it shows 4 GPUs, but 3 Memory readings. Is that a limitation of AfterBurner not to show details on the 4th vram bank?

Yours being a pair of EVGA GTX 590, that means each GPU has 1.5GB of vram, of the 3GB per card - correct? That kind of brings out another question. Vega mentioned at 1600p vram usage is close to 2GB on one 30", but that's using a card that has 3GB of vram available per GPU. Does that mean that games recognize this and 'use it excessively only if its there' ?
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post #24 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by vipergod2000;13197475 
WOW! Thanks for all the contributions in this thread! I guess this is indeed a pressing issue for some of us pushing higher res of 4Megapixels and beyond, so I'm happy to hear from everyone, and hope this thread can perhaps continue to build itself with more screenshots on vram usage at the various resolutions in certain games to act as references for others concerned about this topic.

Thanks for the insight. Great to hear from the man himself. I do have a further question about those 3GB Palit cards you're using. In your thread over at [H], you mentioned that the new 'full cover' EK blocks for non reference GTX 580s fit your cards with the exception of those small chips at the end of the cards. Those chips were in contact with the stock cooler, and you said when you touched the chips at idle (or was it load, can't remember) it wasn't comfortable to keep you finger there for more than 5 seconds.

I'm asking because I am leaning toward the 3GB GTX 580 route, but not conclusively yet until we hopefully get to see more screenshots from other users smile.gif. What did you end up doing to cool those chips not covered by the block?

Also, how would you rate the Palit's cooling on that 3GB card? The decision to go water over stock would need to be a strong one, such as temps reaching over 70 if lightly OCed.

Thanks for that post RagingCain. Conclusive evidence really solidifies prior contemplations. But I just want to clarify, in your OSD it shows 4 GPUs, but 3 Memory readings. Is that a limitation of AfterBurner not to show details on the 4th vram bank?

Yours being a pair of EVGA GTX 590, that means each GPU has 1.5GB of vram, of the 3GB per card - correct? That kind of brings out another question. Vega mentioned at 1600p vram usage is close to 2GB on one 30", but that's using a card that has 3GB of vram available per GPU. Does that mean that games recognize this and 'use it excessively only if its there' ?

Those uncovered VRMs on the Palit 3GB cards with the EK blocks are a non-issue. I actually used a digital thermal sensor and they only get up to around ~50C max as they are actually cooled by the PCB. 120C is what they are rated for!

Now the Palits on Air would reach about ~65C if left room to breath at a slight over clock. I am always for putting stuff under water. In my case, the 4x 580s idle @ around ~3C with a hefty 1020Mhz core over clock and 100% load of ~15C.

You also cannot use the Metro2033 benchmark as a indicator of VRAM usage. That is a small scene and the VRAM usage while actually playing the game is much greater.
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post #25 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by CallsignVega;13197517 
Those uncovered VRMs on the Palit 3GB cards with the EK blocks are a non-issue. I actually used a digital thermal sensor and they only get up to around ~50C max as they are actually cooled by the PCB. 120C is what they are rated for!

Now the Palits on Air would reach about ~65C if left room to breath at a slight over clock. I am always for putting stuff under water. In my case, the 4x 580s idle @ around ~3C with a hefty 1020Mhz core over clock and 100% load of ~15C.

You also cannot use the Metro2033 benchmark as a indicator of VRAM usage. That is a small scene and the VRAM usage while actually playing the game is much greater.

That is correct its not all inclusive evidence. All benchmarks do is give you a rough estimation of performance. VRAM usage I would suspect to be higher with a full level loaded, however rendering wise there are driver optimizations that help curb reaching that VRAM wall performance drop.

I would hesitate to play Metro/Crysis in 5760x1080 but would play DevilMayCry 4 any day of the week. Which was the point I was trying to show, different games have different VRAM usages. 3GB is very future proof, but I don't see it as dire as many people have come to believe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vipergod2000;13197475 
Thanks for that post RagingCain. Conclusive evidence really solidifies prior contemplations. But I just want to clarify, in your OSD it shows 4 GPUs, but 3 Memory readings. Is that a limitation of AfterBurner not to show details on the 4th vram bank?

Yours being a pair of EVGA GTX 590, that means each GPU has 1.5GB of vram, of the 3GB per card - correct? That kind of brings out another question. Vega mentioned at 1600p vram usage is close to 2GB on one 30", but that's using a card that has 3GB of vram available per GPU. Does that mean that games recognize this and 'use it excessively only if its there' ?

Its an Afterburner limitation, it seems only 8 line print out capable. FPS sometimes gets that last line, or Mem4 does. A bit random smile.gif. After checking a few games, its indeed identical for all 4 GPUs, so I only now display Mem1 Freq/Usage, no point to display the others if they are all the same.

From my undertsanding, there is a VRAM wall, and once you cross, you get terrible choking performance while it tries to cope.

The 590 is really two lower powered GTX 580s. Thats it. That 3GB is a bit non-sense. Is there 3 GB on the whole card? Yes. Is it sequential? No. Its like having 3x 2TB hard drives in a raid-0, and then telling a guy you have a 6TB harddrive. So, that being said, the most I can use without the VRAM overlap is 1.538GB of memory (or however much it is.) However, like I mentioned before, their are Driver optimizations that can take place to not only compress data usage, but also to quickly remove it (quite a bit of GPU memory is Cached, similar to what Windows 7 does) and if it can drop cache data for rendered data, the performance will drop slightly but you are actually using that memory as opposed to VRAM limitation being imposed. Sometimes there is just nothing you can do and a spike will send you crashing in the single digits of FPS-dom.

All and all, I believe 3GB is good for 2560x1600x4/8AA range (because you are easily beyond the 1.5GB range.) However, many people are not aware of this, you won't be pumping out 60+ fps all of sudden because you have a GPU with 3GB of VRAM on it. It will perform almost no better than a single GTX 580 if it hasn't hit the VRAM wall. If you really want performance at high resolutions (60fps+ with eyecandy) you are going to need more than one card/one GPU. There simply is no other way.
Edited by RagingCain - 4/19/11 at 10:13pm
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post #26 of 102
1.5Gbs VRAM = perfect for 1 screen

2-3Gbs VRAM = Good for multi screens

I know i can't run max aa with 1.5GBs with Tri Head...

but the one screen...

i was running 32x 64x AA alot of the time with no issues

EDIT:

That said....

it is always better to have more then what you need...

i mean i didn't need 2x480s.. but i am glad i have them now because it runs tri head so well
post #27 of 102
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CallsignVega;13197517 
Those uncovered VRMs on the Palit 3GB cards with the EK blocks are a non-issue. I actually used a digital thermal sensor and they only get up to around ~50C max as they are actually cooled by the PCB. 120C is what they are rated for!

Now the Palits on Air would reach about ~65C if left room to breath at a slight over clock. I am always for putting stuff under water. In my case, the 4x 580s idle @ around ~3C with a hefty 1020Mhz core over clock and 100% load of ~15C.

You also cannot use the Metro2033 benchmark as a indicator of VRAM usage. That is a small scene and the VRAM usage while actually playing the game is much greater.


Well for that vram usage figure I provided, it wasn't actually from the benchmark, it was when I loaded up my last save game and played for about 2 minutes, then I quit the game and saw my Afterburner graphs sustained at about 1100MB of vram used.

Being so happy with my GREEN, it's hard to think about defecting over to the reds.. but that one comment about the 2x 6970 2GB (or for me, a 6950 w/bios fl) does seem economical, but then again I think i read that AMD cards don't provide VRAM usage indication. Is that right?

I've never watercooled before, so the decision to embark on that will probably reserved for when I see the actual performance of the 2x 580s stock pushing 1600p. By those temps, if I was running a case with really good airflow, I think I should be able to get the Palit's running up to about 900 core or so. If performance is still inhibited by that and calls for clocks exceeding 950, then I guess I'll have to 'take the plunge into water'.

Btw, why did you get the Palit's over Gainward? Or was Palit the only brand that put out the 3GB at the time?


Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain;13197591 
That is correct its not all inclusive evidence. All benchmarks do is give you a rough estimation of performance. VRAM usage I would suspect to be higher with a full level loaded, however rendering wise there are driver optimizations that help curb reaching that VRAM wall performance drop.

I would hesitate to play Metro/Crysis in 5760x1080 but would play DevilMayCry 4 any day of the week. Which was the point I was trying to show, different games have different VRAM usages. 3GB is very future proof, but I don't see it as dire as many people have come to believe.



Its an Afterburner limitation, it seems only 8 line print out capable. FPS sometimes gets that last line, or Mem4 does. A bit random smile.gif. After checking a few games, its indeed identical for all 4 GPUs, so I only now display Mem1 Freq/Usage, no point to display the others if they are all the same.

From my undertsanding, there is a VRAM wall, and once you cross, you get terrible choking performance while it tries to cope.

The 590 is really two lower powered GTX 580s. Thats it. That 3GB is a bit non-sense. Is there 3 GB on the whole card? Yes. Is it sequential? No. Its like having 3x 2TB hard drives in a raid-0, and then telling a guy you have a 6TB harddrive. So, that being said, the most I can use without the VRAM overlap is 1.538GB of memory (or however much it is.) However, like I mentioned before, their are Driver optimizations that can take place to not only compress data usage, but also to quickly remove it (quite a bit of GPU memory is Cached, similar to what Windows 7 does) and if it can drop cache data for rendered data, the performance will drop slightly but you are actually using that memory as opposed to VRAM limitation being imposed. Sometimes there is just nothing you can do and a spike will send you crashing in the single digits of FPS-dom.

All and all, I believe 3GB is good for 2560x1600x4/8AA range (because you are easily beyond the 1.5GB range.) However, many people are not aware of this, you won't be pumping out 60+ fps all of sudden because you have a GPU with 3GB of VRAM on it. It will perform almost no better than a single GTX 580 if it hasn't hit the VRAM wall. If you really want performance at high resolutions (60fps+ with eyecandy) you are going to need more than one card/one GPU. There simply is no other way.


Thanks for that insight. I never knew about drivers being able to control vram usage so dynamically - I always assumed it was always 'load up all that is needed' and if you 'ran out' you would drop to the single fpsdom as you put it.

I guess personally I'd have to re-address my needs, very much like how Vega stated he wanted seamless performance at 4800x2560 gaming (correct me if i'm wrong). If I said I want to play all current games, at max settings, max AA (in game, not control panel driven) at 2560x1600 on one 30" at 60fps and above - I think the closest to 100% answer to that would be 2 x GTX 580 3GB.

If I said my demands were to hit 60FPS at max settings at 2560x1600 and with much AA as possible and be satisfied with dialing it down if the need came up due to the vram wall, then the 1.5GB would certainly be the answer - right?

Since i'm already running a GTX 570 with 1280Mb of vram, my ideal situation would be to pick up the U3011 and another 570 and call it a day - but as this thread has managed to establish, I shouldn't expect myself to enable any AA at that resolution being capped with that much VRAM on 2 x 570 regardless of processing power.

Now comparatively, do you guys find the enabling of AA into higher levels something you feel one should change their setups for due to a vram cap? (like in the case of 2x OCed GTX 570s having sufficient processing power, but lacking in the memory department).

Sorry for all the questions, but some form of reassurance does help when you hear of other people having similar opinions and help steer you into a direction.
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post #28 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgoes2001;13198276 
1.5Gbs VRAM = perfect for 1 screen

2-3Gbs VRAM = Good for multi screens

I know i can't run max aa with 1.5GBs with Tri Head...

but the one screen...

i was running 32x 64x AA alot of the time with no issues

EDIT:

That said....

it is always better to have more then what you need...

i mean i didn't need 2x480s.. but i am glad i have them now because it runs tri head so well

Its not really an achievement to run 32 or 64 AA (its just adaptive, not true MSAA), in DX9 games. They are no brainers for today GPUs.

But if you try to run DX10 at 32xCQAA or DX11xCQAA, you will enjoy yourself at 1 FPS most of the time, depends on the game.

Today's top games require a lot, and the textures are quite many, so a 32 or 64 of adaptive AA or CQAA, is still a nice dream.
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post #29 of 102
If I said I want to play all current games, at max settings, max AA (in game, not control panel driven) at 2560x1600 on one 30" at 60fps and above - I think the closest to 100% answer to that would be 2 x GTX 580 3GB.

If I said my demands were to hit 60FPS at max settings at 2560x1600 and with much AA as possible and be satisfied with dialing it down if the need came up due to the vram wall, then the 1.5GB would certainly be the answer - right?

Since i'm already running a GTX 570 with 1280Mb of vram, my ideal situation would be to pick up the U3011 and another 570 and call it a day - but as this thread has managed to establish, I shouldn't expect myself to enable any AA at that resolution being capped with that much VRAM on 2 x 570 regardless of processing power.[/quote]

This pretty much summarize how things are, price being the deciding factor, I for instance basically managed to get 2x GTX 580 with 1.5GB at the price of a single GTX 580 3GB, so I pursued the 1.5 GB route, while knowing that few selected games will force me to tone down AA.
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Now comparatively, do you guys find the enabling of AA into higher levels something you feel one should change their setups for due to a vram cap? (like in the case of 2x OCed GTX 570s having sufficient processing power, but lacking in the memory department).

In my opinion, AA is not worth an upgrade, playing decent at a higher resolution it is though (I was running a GTX 275 before)
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Sorry for all the questions, but some form of reassurance does help when you hear of other people having similar opinions and help steer you into a direction.

No worries, we are here to help.
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post #30 of 102
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Hey guys, I decided to evaluate my current standings with my setup consisting my EVGA GTX 570 SC pushing my 22 inch @ 1920x1080. I ran up a few of my games with different settings to see if you guys can help me deduce this discussion any further, and enable an outcome with a much better understanding of what to expect.

I first started with Resident Evil 5 with the following settings:

re5dx102011042019242187.jpg

re5dx102011042019243047.jpg



While running the 'Fixed Benchmark' my VRAM usage peaked at 668MB and was hovering around there throughout the entire bench.

re5dx102011042019251688.jpg







Next, I booted up Crysis warhead, as I knew this would do some damage, and well, read on for the following.

All settings were as below:
crysis20110420192809884.jpg

I first started with maxxing it out with AA set at 16xQ
crysis20110420192817596.jpg

I loaded up a save and went to the exact same spot to compare the different settings of 16xQ, 8x, 4x and no AA in the following screenshots. VRAM soared up to 1251MB - 1262MB on this setting and the game was intermittently choppy although FPS showed okay. I didn't play it very long at this setting, because I was eager to find out the differences in the VRAM with the other AA settings.

crysis20110420192953799.jpg

crysis20110420193041362.jpg



Next I tried up 8x

Each time I changed any AA settings, I quit the game, and went back to the desktop and checked the VRAM usage in Afterburner, and surely it drops to 100+mb used. I did this each time just as a double checking measure to ensure the vram was 'flushed' before changing AA settings.

With 8x AA, going back to the same spot, the VRAM was at 1023MB. I stayed there for a while, about 30 seconds, pretty much the same I did with 16xQ earlier, and no major fluctuations (perhaps maybe went up to 1026MB but I ensured if it did go higher, I'd have taken another screenshot).

crysis20110420195850448.jpg

crysis20110420195950646.jpg

crysis20110420200136528.jpg

A couple of nice screens smile.gif Couldn't help myself testing the motion blur too hehe
crysis20110420200430279.jpg

crysis20110420200435567.jpg
This was a little further in the game and it peaked about here @ 1121MB. With 1280MB of VRAM on my GTX 570, means I have about ~150MB of vram to spare at 8x I guess.

$%^$%^

Next was 4x

crysis20110420195313543.jpg


crysis20110420195436323.jpg



crysis20110420195652271.jpg




I then switched OFF AA entirely and did the same thing once again

crysis20110420200753860.jpg

crysis20110420200854380.jpg


Simple conclusion: Big changes in the VRAM are seen at different AA settings in Warhead. I only assume Crysis One is worse (more challenging wink.gif )




I then started up Lost Planet 2 to run the benchmark at everything maxed out with CSAA32X

lp2dx112011042020112447.jpg
lp2dx112011042020112736.jpg

lp2dx112011042020114863.jpg
I peaked out with ~1010MB during the whole benchmark.

With AA OFF..

lp2dx112011042020132922.jpg
About ~750MB. Then again benchmarks aren't so accurate in depicting gaming scenarios, but still good as some sort of an example.








I then booted up Mafia II with the following settings:

mafia220110420223917862.jpg

In the game I used up only 562MB VRAM.
mafia220110420224017629.jpg

During the benchmark, I hit about 600+ MB VRAM usage
mafia220110420224329423.jpg






Lastly, to take the cake, I booted up Metro 2033. At the title menu, I was using up 1095MB of VRAM!!!!
metro203320110420224710.jpg



With AAA enabled and everything else maxed out, I loaded up a save and funny enough, I was still at 1095MB usage.

metro203320110420224819.jpg
metro203320110420224842.jpg

When I turned on MSAA4X, it shot up to 1143MB, and the game was choppy as hell and would only be smooth while standing still - like how crysis warhead was at 16xQ. When I jerked/swiftly looked around in the game with the mouse, thats when it got choppy, thus deemed unplayable.

metro203320110420224912.jpg

I guess its nearly 100% conclusive it hit the saturation point with 4xMSAA.



Considering 1920x1080 is about ~2.1 Megapixels, and 2560x1600 is about 4.1Mp, i think I am quite concerned with the amount of VRAM I would need just to run it at those resolutions even with low or without any AA if its any card with 1.5GB or less.

Only Metro 2033 and Warhead seem to be a problem here, but there's a whole lot of games I'm left to play with and looking forward to BF3 and a few more, I'm afraid that stepping up to 2560x1600 without getting at least 2GB of VRAM is gonna take a toll on my performance. I mean, ideally, I'd like to just add another GTX 570 along with my monitor, but I'd hate to have a GTX 570 SLi setup (i mean come on, it's only 1 tier down from the 580!) and have to be conservative with my settings. What would be worse still is having to dial down the resolution because of the memory capacity, and not because of having two awesomely powerful GPUs (dialing down the res would just render a purchase of such a monitor utterly pointless).

When I planned my Sandy Bridge purchase along with the GTX570, I wasn't aware of vram being any sort of an issue with games and AA at the time, and thought it had more to do with graphics processing power than anything.

I already planned for a 30 incher after my SB bare system and to use my 1080p for now and soak up the unrestricted experience at 1080p (which i am really enjoying now I must say) before STEPPING UP to a 1600p 30", and I ensured I had a good enough mobo to support SLi so I could easily add another GTX 570.

I hope that plan does not strictly have to take a detour.

Mafia2020, RagingCaine, Vega, or anyone else for that matter, if you could please offer your advice, post some screenshots of 1600p, or anything at all, anyone, I'd really appreciate it. Special mention goes out to the three of them for their contributions earlier smile.gif
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