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[Joystiq] Skyrim 'mostly a DirectX 9 game,' PC mods could make it to consoles - Page 8

post #71 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by OC'ing Noob View Post
My biggest beef with Oblivion are the crappy procedurally generated terrains that are essentially all the same.
Oblivion is the reason I no longer pre-order games. I was so disgusted by that game. I will admit it did get old basically walking around the same cave and closing the same Oblivion gate, but I could have put up with it...if there wasn't scaling.

Sorry, I've alredy complained about scaling in this thread, but seriously. I just can't understand why so many RPG players liked a game where leveling was a bad thing and common bandits lived homeless in the country side while wearing gear worth enough money to buy half a country. Most of those common bandits were more of a chalenge then the special NPCs that were supposed to be a boss type opponent.

Bah! Just thinking about it still gets me into a bad mood. No other game has ever had that kind of affect on me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcherea View Post
I think this might be the last game thread I ever look at on OCN lol. It seems as if there has been some sort of Overclock.net Gamers Skeptic Initiative that has been set in stone, and it makes me absolutely sick. Insert game title, copy paste every post from the thread before it with new title. Just figured I'd post some random thing that no one cares about =D Otherwise, I'm excited for my next 100+ hour hibernation single player title =)
Heh...this is true. Pretty much ever game news thread goes into how the game doesn't make use of hardware or is a crappy port, but then the people that defend the game will attack those you don't like the game with accusations that they didn't research enough to make their comment. That's the script, now every one learn your lines for the next game.

Though for some reason it doesn't get old...I wonder why?
Edited by Vagrant Storm - 4/21/11 at 12:30pm
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post #72 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant Storm View Post
Oblivion is the reason I no longer pre-order games. I was so disgusted by that game. I will admit it did get old basically walking around the same cave and closing the same Oblivion gate, but I could have put up with it...if there wasn't scaling.

Sorry, I've alredy complained about scaling in this thread, but seriously. I just can't understand why so many RPG players liked a game where leveling was a bad thing and common bandits lived homeless in the country side while wearing gear worth enough money to buy half a country. Most of those common bandits were more of a chalenge then the special NPCs that were supposed to be a boss type opponent.

Bah! Just thinking about it still gets me into a bad mood. No other game has ever had that kind of affect on me.



Heh...this is true. Pretty much ever game news thread goes into how the game doesn't make use of hardware or is a crappy port, but then the people that defend the game will attack those you don't like the game with accusations that they didn't research enough to make their comment. That's the script, now every one learn your lines for the next game.

Though for some reason it doesn't get old...I wonder why?
scaling has been used in rpgs since oh, i dunno 1984.

Oblivion simply had poor scaling. FO3 improved it quite a bit. It will be fine in skyrim.

The last thing anyone wants is for combat to become so easy its not fun, which is why scaling has always been in rpgs.
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post #73 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletcherea View Post
I think this might be the last game thread I ever look at on OCN lol. It seems as if there has been some sort of Overclock.net Gamers Skeptic Initiative that has been set in stone, and it makes me absolutely sick. Insert game title, copy paste every post from the thread before it with new title. Just figured I'd post some random thing that no one cares about =D Otherwise, I'm excited for my next 100+ hour hibernation single player title =)
It is because every year we get new ignorant brats who think they know everything and have nothing better to do than whine 24/7 about something and have some sort of self-entitlement outlook on life that everyone owes them everything. Developers aren't pushing the envelope and maxing out their e-peen only graphics card? Oh boohoo! Cry me a river! Here is an idea, how about spending less money and investing in more practical hardware! If people want things to change, they need to start by convincing themselves and everyone around them to actually boycott something, instead of signing a boycott petition and then turning around and buying the damn thing.
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post #74 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant Storm View Post
Ever wonder if modding is causing the official releases to be lower quality? I often think when I am applying a texture mod that the original developer could have done this just as easily. I wonder if Bethsesda is catching on that if they only do half the work then the modders will do the other half...or that even if they do all the work the modders will re-do it anyway.
I have thought this same thing for about a year or so. Most games are going to be console ports BECAUSE the gaming consumer shifted from adults using PC's to children with a console. Dev's are not going to alienate their largest market share by developing a game that is unplayable on consoles. And in the case of TES, Bethesda knows it has an established modding community that will step in and not only make the game visually what it should have been but also (in TES IV big time) will work out the bugs and known conflicts for them on the PC version. I think Oblivion is one of the best games out there, but not because of Bethesda. I paid retail for a copy of Oblivion on release and got a game that had so many bugs it got to where I uninstalled it after about a month. It was almost two years before I felt that the modding community had fixed enough of the bugs to try it again. It is a fabulous game now, but that is not because Bethesda gave it good game support. I will more than likely get this game, but not at release. I will wait for the modders to do what must be done so the game is, at minimum, playable. I will probably not get Skyrim until the GOTY-type version is available because I can no longer justify paying retail prices for beta products.
Edited by Bulldozer72 - 4/21/11 at 4:20pm
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post #75 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tralala View Post
please enlighten us
1.) How games are developed, why developers continue to use DX9, why PC games are being limited by consoles.

People say developers are lazy. This is mostly false. Developers have a limited amount of time to make a game, and a limited budget with which to make it. This means that to make a decent profit they'll likely need to target consoles as well as PC, and that makes they'll need to develop for multiple platforms at once. DX9 is used for multiple reasons. 35% of their PC user base still has Windows XP, so they'll have to make it run on DX9, that means that DX10-11 will cost more and will offer little noticeable improvement for most people playing their game. Also, consoles like the Xbox 360 use a derivative of DX9, so they're developing with DX9 in mind for that as well.

2.) What DX9 is, when it was made, what it entails, and what DX11 means.

DirectX 9.0 was made in 2002, but that isn't the DX9 games are made with today. DirectX 9.0c is when Shader Model 3.0 was first used, and almost no engine today supports anything less than that, except older engines like Source. DX 9.0c came out in 2004. And even so, in 2004 many features of SM 3.0 were used very lightly because they were more expensive and cards of the time couldn't handle those kinds of loads. So between 2004 up until about 2007 games progressed without the need for a new DirectX version. That is about when DirectX 10 came out. DX10 and DX11 have failed to take off because they don't offer drastic improvements that most customers will notice, and in part because Microsoft limited them to specific versions of Windows, this means that if a developer employs DX10/DX11, only a subset of their customers will have the right OS to use it, and only a subset of those will have a GPU that will be able to handle it well.

DX11 offers a few niceties like being more optimized for multi-threading, and better handling of tessellation, but it's nothing compelling enough to completely change the look of a game, or change it enough that many customers will notice. The optimizations are nice, but when a game is multi-platform it's already targeting 5-6 year old console hardware, so it will likely run just fine on PC even without the optimizations found in DX11.

3.) How optimized PC games currently are.

I keep hearing the PC games are poorly optimized. When we're talking about an actual port of a game from console to PC then there is a good chance this is true. But when you're talking about a game created for multiple platforms at once, then it is less likely to be the case. I've rarely seen multiplatform games developed simultaneously for different platforms perform horribly on any of those platforms. If they're not simultaneous releases then that is a different story.

I can tell you the game I'm working on will run on an Nvidia FX 5200, one of the worst video cards ever made (for its time, and Nvidia should be slapped for it), and it's quite literally 8 years old. We do stuff like this because some people have older computers, or netbooks, or cheaper computers with integrated graphics. PC games have to be developed for a wide range of hardware and software, and so you can spend 10 times as much time optimizing your engine for a PC game and it will still be less optimized than a console, because with the console you know the exact hardware and OS you're working with.

4.) What a console port is, and what that term means.

Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porting

Or more specifically this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porting#Porting_in_gaming

Long story short, if a game is developed for multiple platforms at once, it's not a port. Only if it is developed for one set of platforms, and then later on has to be re-written or modified to run on another platform, is it considered a port. So neither Skyrim nor Crysis 2 are console ports. Sure the developers didn't modify the content much between platforms, but that doesn't make it a port, it makes it a multiplatform game with little variety between the platforms.


Quote:
Originally Posted by OC'ing Noob View Post
It is because every year we get new ignorant brats who think they know everything and have nothing better to do than whine 24/7 about something and have some sort of self-entitlement outlook on life that everyone owes them everything. Developers aren't pushing the envelope and maxing out their e-peen only graphics card? Oh boohoo! Cry me a river! Here is an idea, how about spending less money and investing in more practical hardware! If people want things to change, they need to start by convincing themselves and everyone around them to actually boycott something, instead of signing a boycott petition and then turning around and buying the damn thing.
This guy speaks the truth.
Edited by lordikon - 4/21/11 at 1:19pm
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post #76 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldozer72 View Post
I have thought this same thing for about a year or so. Most games are going to be console ports BECAUSE the gaming consumer shifted from adults using PC's to children with a console. Dev's are not going to alienate their largest market share by developing a game that is unplayable on consoles. And in the case of TES, Bethesda knows it has an established modding community that will step in and not only make the game visually what it should have been but also (in TES IV big time) will work out the bugs and known conflicts for them on the PC version. I think Oblivion is one of the best games out there, but not because of Bethesda. I paid retail for a copy of Oblivion on release and got a game that had so many bugs it got to where I uninstalled it after about a month. It was almost two years before I felt that the modding community had fixed enough of the bugs to try it again. It is a fabulous game now, but that is not because Bethesda gave it good game support. I will more than likely get this game, but not at release. I will wait for the modders to do what must be done so the game is, at minimum, playable. I will probably not buy Skyrim until the GOTY-type version is available because I can no longer justify paying retail prices for beta products.
Yeah, the QC of Bethesda and the game support afterwards is pathetic at best. It is like Bethesda has no concept of game testing.
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post #77 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post
1.) How games are developed, why developers continue to use DX9, why PC games are being limited by consoles.

People say developers are lazy. This is mostly false. Developers have a limited amount of time to make a game, and a limited budget with which to make it. This means that to make a decent profit they'll likely need to target consoles as well as PC, and that makes they'll need to develop for multiple platforms at once. DX9 is used for multiple reasons. 35% of their PC user base still has Windows XP, so they'll have to make it run on DX9, that means that DX10-11 will cost more and will offer little noticeable improvement for most people playing their game. Also, consoles like the Xbox 360 use a derivative of DX9, so they're developing with DX9 in mind for that as well.

2.) What DX9 is, when it was made, what it entails, and what DX11 means.

DirectX 9.0 was made in 2002, but that isn't the DX9 games are made with today. DirectX 9.0c is when Shader Model 3.0 was first used, and almost no engine today supports anything less than that, except older engines like Source. DX 9.0c came out in 2004. And even so, in 2004 many features of SM 3.0 were used very lightly because they were more expensive and cards of the time couldn't handle those kinds of loads. So between 2004 up until about 2007 games progressed without the need for a new DirectX version. That is about when DirectX 10 came out. DX10 and DX11 have failed to take off because they don't offer drastic improvements that most customers will notice, and in part because Microsoft limited them to specific versions of Windows, this means that if a developer employs DX10/DX11, only a subset of their customers will have the right OS to use it, and only a subset of those will have a GPU that will be able to handle it well.

DX11 offers a few niceties like being more optimized for multi-threading, and better handling of tessellation, but it's nothing compelling enough to completely change the look of a game, or change it enough that many customers will notice. The optimizations are nice, but when a game is multi-platform it's already targeting 5-6 year old console hardware, so it will likely run just fine on PC even without the optimizations found in DX11.

3.) How optimized PC games currently are.

I keep hearing the PC games are poorly optimized. When we're talking about an actual port of a game from console to PC then there is a good chance this is true. But when you're talking about a game created for multiple platforms at once, then it is less likely to be the case. I've rarely seen multiplatform games developed simultaneously for different platforms perform horribly on any of those platforms. If they're not simultaneous releases then that is a different story.

I can tell you the game I'm working on will run on an Nvidia FX 5200, one of the worst video cards ever made (for its time, and Nvidia should be slapped for it), and it's quite literally 8 years old. We do stuff like this because some people have older computers, or netbooks, or cheaper computers with integrated graphics. PC games have to be developed for a wide range of hardware and software, and so you can spend 10 times as much time optimizing your engine for a PC game and it will still be less optimized than a console, because with the console you know the exact hardware and OS you're working with.

4.) What a console port is, and what that term means.

Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porting

Or more specifically this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porting#Porting_in_gaming

Long story short, if a game is developed for multiple platforms at once, it's not a port. Only if it is developed for one set of platforms, and then later on has to be re-written or modified to run on another platform, is it considered a port. So neither Skyrim nor Crysis 2 are console ports. Sure the developers didn't modify the content much between platforms, but that doesn't make it a port, it makes it a multiplatform game with little variety between the platforms.
Although I think it's awesome that you typed that up: if anyone didn't know what these things are, they won't want to
post #78 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farfnarkle View Post
Although I think it's awesome that you typed that up: if anyone didn't know what these things are, they won't want to
Then they deserve the ridicule that will rain down on them for being ignorant fools.
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post #79 of 95
I'm pretty sure I read a post not too long ago that said Skyrim would be using some DX11 features....

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post #80 of 95
Quote:
Originally Posted by Segovax View Post
I thought they learned their lesson from Oblivion... I guess not... as much as it pains me to not buy this game, I won't.

I hate you for making Morrowind such an awesome game Bethesda.
You base your purchase on the API they go with?
    
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Video Game News › [Joystiq] Skyrim 'mostly a DirectX 9 game,' PC mods could make it to consoles