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Theories on why the SMT hurts the performance of gaming in Ryzen and some recommendations for the future

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post #11 of 56 (permalink) Old 03-04-2017, 01:12 AM
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This is the first post that is actually looking for answers in the right place.

 

I am really surprised that no-one else has noticed the correlation yet between CPU and GPU performance. All the CPU benchmarks that only hit the CPU seem to provide really good results that beat can Broadwell-E while All the benchmarks that rely on the CPU plus a strong GPU are under performing. GPU load impacts CPU performance.  

 

Together with the memory clock speed limitations, Isnt it obvious to everyone that the gaming performance issue is being caused because of a weakness in performance somewhare in the interface between the CPU and GPU? The PCIe 3.0 bus is running at a fixed rate x16 so it is not the size of the pipe that is limiting things so there is only one thing left that can possibly be causing the issue and that is the part of the Chip that manages the chip IO (PCIe and Memory controllers - the fabric that you are discussing in the original post).

 

CPU's, and it doesn't matter if it is Intel or AMD, all have to juggle interdependent resources to get peak performance, too much strength on one side will overwhelm the other side and will reduce performance. Given that none of the Reviewer "experts" nor, apparently any of the Motherboard "engineering" Marketing people have mentioned it would seem to indicate that they don't really understand what is going on are are just trying to follow an overclocking process that they have memorized in the past. 

 

This is just from a thought experiment but I believe that I can tell you The Solution.

 

I am pretty certain that the workaround to this apparent conundrum will be to use a higher BCLK frequency with a lower multiplier and fine tune the IO/SOC voltages. It will improve memory clocking limitations and will increase the the number of cycles per second that the PCIe controller can deal with data flow between the CPU and GPU allowing a better balanced system. It will also allow you to  improve fast frequency memory kits ability to clock past 2933Mhz.

 

I would start by Setting BCLK to 125 and the CPU multiplier to around 32 or 33. Set memory to a higher bin frequency and adjust Ram timings. I don't know what the exact best multiplier/BCLK frequency combination will be, It could be 150/20 for a 4Ghz CPU frequency. That will require experimentation by the people who have the chip in hand. I suspect that the 1800X and 1700X chips, because of higher complexity at the SOC level that currently seems to be having problems, will benefit the most from this approach.

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post #12 of 56 (permalink) Old 03-04-2017, 02:35 AM
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I love all these theories. Now that I have my 1800x running my ASRock x370 killer Mobo I finally have a feel for the strangeness that is this chip. It performs so wildly.

I've updated my BIOS to what is the latest, but what gets me is how many options seem like blatant debug settings. So many settings that have no description but really once you look at them, hint at some deeper issues.

I wonder how much AMD is helping the motherboard guys, most of it seems like a shot in the dark to me.

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post #13 of 56 (permalink) Old 03-04-2017, 02:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navjack27 View Post

I love all these theories. Now that I have my 1800x running my ASRock x370 killer Mobo I finally have a feel for the strangeness that is this chip. It performs so wildly.

I've updated my BIOS to what is the latest, but what gets me is how many options seem like blatant debug settings. So many settings that have no description but really once you look at them, hint at some deeper issues.

I wonder how much AMD is helping the motherboard guys, most of it seems like a shot in the dark to me.

 

The whole platforms seems to have come to market before it was ready. Deadlines from the CEO I guess.

 

so how have you overclocked the chip/memory?

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post #14 of 56 (permalink) Old 03-04-2017, 03:15 AM
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well i have a coolermaster t4, so cooling ain't that great. i can't get my memory to do much past stock for whatever reason. i've had 4ghz just fine until heavy multithreaded loads but the issue is i have no idea what the voltage was or is or if it took. i have the best luck using ryzen master to set things AFTER i set them in bios.

right now i'm just stock auto everything and i'm going to wait it out until microcode updates and more bios updates happen.

maybe i'm a huge nerd but its neat having all these options but also having no idea what they do biggrin.gif





EDIT: no option in my bios for memory timings... knowing if XFR is actually ON when ratio is on auto. no per-core settings... theres actually a ton "missing"

might i mention that it says in the ryzen master user manual that you need to enable HPET in windows to use it. and, yes you do need to enable it. but that COULD explain the lower gaming benchmark numbers in some cases.

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post #15 of 56 (permalink) Old 03-04-2017, 03:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navjack27 View Post

well i have a coolermaster t4, so cooling ain't that great. i can't get my memory to do much past stock for whatever reason. i've had 4ghz just fine until heavy multithreaded loads but the issue is i have no idea what the voltage was or is or if it took. i have the best luck using ryzen master to set things AFTER i set them in bios.

right now i'm just stock auto everything and i'm going to wait it out until microcode updates and more bios updates happen.

maybe i'm a huge nerd but its neat having all these options but also having no idea what they do biggrin.gif





EDIT: no option in my bios for memory timings... knowing if XFR is actually ON when ratio is on auto. no per-core settings... theres actually a ton "missing"

might i mention that it says in the ryzen master user manual that you need to enable HPET in windows to use it. and, yes you do need to enable it. but that COULD explain the lower gaming benchmark numbers in some cases.

those bios options are utterly alien coming from Intel for so long.

like lol, where to even begin?

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post #16 of 56 (permalink) Old 03-04-2017, 03:34 AM
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well if you have irritable bowel syndrome just disable or enable.
if ur zen is common then go in that menu
if you wanna gimp ur cpu then disable branch prediction
if someone dis'd you and you want to redirect a witty rejoiner back at em then enable that first setting.

at least, these are my guesses

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post #17 of 56 (permalink) Old 03-04-2017, 03:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChronoBodi View Post

those bios options are utterly alien coming from Intel for so long.

like lol, where to even begin?

Custom P-States looks like it's an option to edit every P-State in frequency and voltage. Much like K10Stat for AM3 CPUs or AMDMsrTweaker for AM3+. For example, if you think the lowest Pstate that Ryzen uses is too low for your taste, you can edit and change it. Or if you think it's overvolted, you can undervolt it. Just guess here, i don't have the CPU. If you don't care about such stuff, you can simply ignore it and use whatever PStates AMD has chosen. It's a very nice feature for undervolters, if it's what i think it is.

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post #18 of 56 (permalink) Old 03-04-2017, 03:52 AM
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it goes down to 400mhz on the lowest one. you have to enable 'custom' on each one starting with p0 to see the other ones accurately.

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post #19 of 56 (permalink) Old 03-04-2017, 03:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by navjack27 View Post

well i have a coolermaster t4, so cooling ain't that great. i can't get my memory to do much past stock for whatever reason. i've had 4ghz just fine until heavy multithreaded loads but the issue is i have no idea what the voltage was or is or if it took. i have the best luck using ryzen master to set things AFTER i set them in bios.

right now i'm just stock auto everything and i'm going to wait it out until microcode updates and more bios updates happen.

maybe i'm a huge nerd but its neat having all these options but also having no idea what they do biggrin.gif





EDIT: no option in my bios for memory timings... knowing if XFR is actually ON when ratio is on auto. no per-core settings... theres actually a ton "missing"

might i mention that it says in the ryzen master user manual that you need to enable HPET in windows to use it. and, yes you do need to enable it. but that COULD explain the lower gaming benchmark numbers in some cases.

Realbench will give you a message if you try to run it without the HPET setting in the EFI. As a number of the reviews have used realbench, I doubt that that is the issue.

 

Look in "DRAM timing configuration" section for the primary memory timings.

 

I cant tell you where to look but you might like to try 125 BCLK with a 32 multiplier instead of 100BCLK with 40 multiplier. You will still get 4Ghz but you will have the option to clock memory to speeds higher than 3200 and it may help with combined CPU/GPU performance.

 

pstates are the performance states that the cpu operates in. pstate0 is running at full speed and different loads/temps will push the CPU to different pstate levels. Not seen that so I cant advise how the settings could be adjusted. It is possible that cinebench and Gaming are operating the CPU at different pstates and gaming performance could be recovered in those settings.

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post #20 of 56 (permalink) Old 03-04-2017, 03:58 AM
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what would be the option to set 3.9 ghz on all cores, not just one or two at full load?

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