[Official] AMD Ryzen DDR4 24/7 Memory Stability Thread - Page 424 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community

Forum Jump: 

[Official] AMD Ryzen DDR4 24/7 Memory Stability Thread

Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #4231 of 4347 (permalink) Old 07-31-2020, 10:31 PM
New to Overclock.net
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 410
Rep: 9 (Unique: 8)
I think lower tcwl increases copy performance, not sure.


Edit: looks like it's the other way around, I just tested tcwl 14 trdwr 11-1 v tcwl 16 trdwr 8-3 and 8-3 had better copy BW.

Last edited by 2600ryzen; 07-31-2020 at 11:35 PM.
2600ryzen is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4232 of 4347 (permalink) Old 08-01-2020, 03:53 AM
New to Overclock.net
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 6
Rep: 0
Turns out being unable to lower tRCDRD further might be entirely temperature related, all the other timings are fine up to 50c at least, but tRCDRD starts throwing errors at 30.5c, spewing them at 36, and crashing at 41.

Probably not cracking that when my room hits 25c ambient most of the year.
Ortus is offline  
post #4233 of 4347 (permalink) Old 08-01-2020, 03:58 AM
Edgy & on the edge
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,289
Rep: 54 (Unique: 27)
Quote: Originally Posted by Ortus View Post
Turns out being unable to lower tRCDRD further might be entirely temperature related, all the other timings are fine up to 50c at least, but tRCDRD starts throwing errors at 30.5c, spewing them at 36, and crashing at 41.

Probably not cracking that when my room hits 25c ambient most of the year.
Very interesting. Will have to pop my 120 fan back in and test it.

AMD Bliss
(16 items)
CPU
AMD Ryzen 5 3600 - 2019PGT
Motherboard
MSI X470 Gaming Plus Max - 1.0.0.6
GPU
ASUS GTX 1060 Strix 6GB
RAM
2x8GB G.Skill Trident Z 3600C15 @3800 14-15-12-28-40 1T 1.52V
Hard Drive
Samsung 970 Evo Plus 250GB
Hard Drive
2x Samsung 860 Evo 500GB
Hard Drive
2x Crucial MX500 1TB
Power Supply
Super Flower Leadex II Gold 650W
Cooling
be quiet! Dark Rock 4
Case
Phanteks P350X
Monitor
ASUS VG245HE
Keyboard
Logitech G710+
Mouse
Logitech G502 Hero
Mouse
Logitech G502 Proteus Core
Mousepad
Logitech G440 hardmat
Audio
Asus Cerberus
▲ hide details ▲
rares495 is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4234 of 4347 (permalink) Old 08-01-2020, 04:09 AM
New to Overclock.net
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Posts: 6
Rep: 0
Quote: Originally Posted by rares495 View Post
Very interesting. Will have to pop my 120 fan back in and test it.
My tests had a 120mm straight over the dimms with the case open and I still couldn't keep them below 30 for more than a few minutes

Even when ambient is lower I assume relative humidity is too high to transfer heat properly anyway, hopefully you have better luck
Ortus is offline  
post #4235 of 4347 (permalink) Old 08-01-2020, 04:12 AM
Edgy & on the edge
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,289
Rep: 54 (Unique: 27)
Quote: Originally Posted by Ortus View Post
My tests had a 120mm straight over the dimms with the case open and I still couldn't keep them below 30 for more than a few minutes

Even when ambient is lower I assume relative humidity is too high to transfer heat properly anyway, hopefully you have better luck
Yeah, ambient is quite high here because there's no AC in my room, sadly.

AMD Bliss
(16 items)
CPU
AMD Ryzen 5 3600 - 2019PGT
Motherboard
MSI X470 Gaming Plus Max - 1.0.0.6
GPU
ASUS GTX 1060 Strix 6GB
RAM
2x8GB G.Skill Trident Z 3600C15 @3800 14-15-12-28-40 1T 1.52V
Hard Drive
Samsung 970 Evo Plus 250GB
Hard Drive
2x Samsung 860 Evo 500GB
Hard Drive
2x Crucial MX500 1TB
Power Supply
Super Flower Leadex II Gold 650W
Cooling
be quiet! Dark Rock 4
Case
Phanteks P350X
Monitor
ASUS VG245HE
Keyboard
Logitech G710+
Mouse
Logitech G502 Hero
Mouse
Logitech G502 Proteus Core
Mousepad
Logitech G440 hardmat
Audio
Asus Cerberus
▲ hide details ▲
rares495 is online now  
post #4236 of 4347 (permalink) Old 08-01-2020, 06:53 AM
New to Overclock.net
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 11
Rep: 0
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1439155382


Please test my calculator
And tell me, any mistake or wrong calculation
chitos123 is offline  
post #4237 of 4347 (permalink) Old 08-01-2020, 08:13 AM
New to Overclock.net
 
hazium233's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 176
Rep: 4 (Unique: 3)
Quote: Originally Posted by Ortus View Post
Turns out being unable to lower tRCDRD further might be entirely temperature related, all the other timings are fine up to 50c at least, but tRCDRD starts throwing errors at 30.5c, spewing them at 36, and crashing at 41.

Probably not cracking that when my room hits 25c ambient most of the year.
I have wondered about this with my Rev E because this current set seems to be error free with tRCDRD at 10ns in GSAT for ~hour, but once tested with Karhu, TM5 or HCI the errors appear within a few minutes. Don't have dimm temp sensors though.

COL1
(3 items)
CPU
Ryzen 7 2700X
Motherboard
Asus Strix X370-F
RAM
Ballistix 3200
▲ hide details ▲
hazium233 is offline  
post #4238 of 4347 (permalink) Old 08-01-2020, 08:15 AM
Overclock the World
 
Veii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Austria / Bulgaria
Posts: 1,673
Rep: 131 (Unique: 69)
Quote: Originally Posted by chitos123 View Post
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1439155382

Please test my calculator
And tell me, any mistake or wrong calculation

* and calculate tRAS with:
tCL+tWR+tBL if user decides so
Want to collaborate together or do you rush to make an own version ?
Are you familiar with Android Studio or Apple XCode ?

Such switches are needed on google docs, as too much depends on patterns
SR, DR are different , and amount of dimms change too
Exmpl:

Similar, with option boxes

SiSandra Inter-Core Bandwith 14nm Ryzen global #1 | Twitter
Personal Records
RAM > Viper Steel @ 3466C14 (64.2ns) & Alt | Hynix-MFR 3333CL14 (72.5ns) & Alt

GPU > Gigabyte 970 G1 @ 1595|1900 (Hynix) | RX 580 Red Devil GS @ 1620|2200 (Micron)
CPU > TR 1950X [email protected]1.2v & [email protected]1.365v[105Mhz FSB](3.23Beta)
#Main: 1700X [email protected]1.365v1.73Ghz IMC CL14 (64.2ns)」+ Dark Rock 3 | X370 Taichi 1.0.0.3 ABBA by The Stilt | Viper Steel [PVS416G400C9K]| Gigabyte 970 G1 | Samsung 850 Evo
Veii is online now  
post #4239 of 4347 (permalink) Old 08-01-2020, 08:51 AM
Overclock the World
 
Veii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Austria / Bulgaria
Posts: 1,673
Rep: 131 (Unique: 69)
Quote: Originally Posted by Ortus View Post
Changing SD DDs to the higher value didn't seem to make a difference in AIDA but noticeably increased the amount of time HCI took in dram calc, membench easy went from around 101s to around 108s. It looked like it was also increasing the time Kahru was taking but I didn't think to record times for Kahru the whole way down.
If you've gone down to tRCD 14 instead of 15 - tRDWR 7 would be better than 8
tRCD RD / 2 = tRDWR has to work on 16Gb dimms, but it won't if you waste some latency somewhere
Quote: Originally Posted by rares495 View Post
Veii can tell you more but lowering tRDWR was always the first thing he recommended. I think ideally you want it to be half of tRCDRD but it will never work so (tRCDRD/2)+1 is what most people end up using. As far as I could tell, it really matters more than tCWL for performance.
Quote: Originally Posted by 2600ryzen View Post
I think lower tcwl increases copy performance, not sure.

Edit: looks like it's the other way around, I just tested tcwl 14 trdwr 11-1 v tcwl 16 trdwr 8-3 and 8-3 had better copy BW.
Using low tCWL was on the intel side of things a tweak, as they have tRAS, tRFC, tREFI as scales and a lot of split optimisations on the
tRDWR -> tRRDR
tWRRD -> tRRDD
AMD -> Intel
Side of things
tRC i haven't seen anywhere changable and the "best way" to get lower performance was to drop tCWL
But tCWL <-> tRDWR go hand in hand
If you lower one, you have to up the other one by the same amount

on AMD , tRDWR i found to be next to SCL the biggest perf increase factor
If tRDWR = tRCD RD / 2 won't work
just add a bit of latency on tWRRD, then it will work
Usually it shouldn't need it, only when you go -1 of half tRCD
((tRCD RD/2)-1) on Single Rank dimms works even when you lower tRC -2
Quote: Originally Posted by rastaviper View Post
@Veii

As I have mentioned at a previous post, I have managed to run all of them with 1T, except the tRDWR which at 7 didn't allow my system to boot.
Anything else to push more? Can you explain what is the 5-5-7-7 for the SD DD's exactly?

And the tRas should be 27 as in your image or 29? Because I have it at 27 and it runs fine.
I can't fully yet
They are added transfer delays, while running 1-1-1-1-1-1 works on unstable kits but results in at least 8-10% perf drop
I follow 1usmus's research here, pretty sure dimm amount does define the values and likely also PCB revision ~ as they are just cutoff delays
tRAS i had as 27 in the picture because tWR was 10
What you see in black or whatever colour fits for the time, everything that is applied needs a change at the same time
If one thing is off, the set might break
If nothing was written, just continue to use what you have
tRAS 29 was for your set, tRAs 27 was if you follow the remain timings which do include tWR at 10
As we know
tCL+tWR+tBL = tRAS
Quote: Originally Posted by nick name View Post
Since I can't find any concrete answer on odd primaries (tRCD) being changed to even I went ahead and just set 14-14-14-14 with tCWL at 12. Thanks to @2600ryzen for reminding me that I needed tWRRD set to 1 and tRDWR at 10 to drop tCWL below tCL. I used to leave those on Auto but this latest CH7 BIOS sets them super high when left on Auto. I set tRFC to 6 x tRC. Honestly, that's kinda why I liked 14-13-13-13 because I could set tRC to 40 and tRFC to 240. Setting tRFC to 252 just bugs me.

So ten hours of Karhu. The warmest the DIMMs got was 42*C and I set 1.5V with a droop to 1.48V according to HWiNFO. I think I can drop the voltage a touch, but 1.5V is kinda my default. My SOC is 1.106V with a droop to 1.1V and VDDG 1.05V and VDDP 1.0V. Everything else set to Auto.

GDM off results in immediate errors though it will POST and boot.

So it appears that running straight 14s depends on your RAM and not your settings. I'm not sure what attribute of the RAM allows for it though. Whether it's die quality or something else.

CPU cache is set to enabled in Karhu.
tRCD depends on the IC binning and the PCB, a bit on the voltage but the same goes for ClkDrvStrengh
There has to be enough so the dimms can run GDM disabled and can be driven, but more won't do anything
Could maybe pass-bye with 0.2v more to lower primaries one step further down, but then it also depends how the IC scales and if it can even run voltage beyond 1.56v
A bigger advantage of voltage you get by being able to lower tRP
Which logically lowers tRC

You can test your luck on the dimms how low you can get tRC ~ likely micron has different scaling than b-dies
(Micron rev. E kits can use the same tRDWR math and -2 on it without breaking stability, it's just something only they can do)
B-dies without affecting any other timing, can go tRC down to -2
Lower than that might need tCWL +1 = +2 as even number, to show positive benefits
Although the amount of positive benefits on this kind of shifting, i haven't tested ~yet~
It's an option to consider tho

Overall clean tRAS -> tRC transition remains key, and won't be affected by Dual Rank or who knows 64gb dimms
But going lower than tRC-2 i can't see as viable option so far.
If tRC-1 on DR works i haven't tested so far, but pretty much only Single Rank can abuse this tweak
Same for tRDWR=((tRCD_RD/2) - 1) with added tWRRD delay, only SR exclusive

Quote: Originally Posted by Ortus View Post
Turns out being unable to lower tRCDRD further might be entirely temperature related, all the other timings are fine up to 50c at least, but tRCDRD starts throwing errors at 30.5c, spewing them at 36, and crashing at 41.
Probably not cracking that when my room hits 25c ambient most of the year.
Try it out,
Capacitor discharge is Temp related, but i haven't seen anyone go under tRC*6 , *5 should be possible but i haven't gotten my hands on anything to work personally on recently
Voltage should only increase heat - it will increase the amount of charge and up to your timings, more will be left
But then higher heat has a negative effect and they will lose even faster the charge
tRP is there to adjust and help on this "issue"

If your dimms get too hot, increase tRP
If you want less vDIMM, increase tRP
if you want to meet a tRFC target, decrease tRP and increase voltage
Only increasing voltage won't really grant you a good tRFC ~ as neverless what fixed refresh-cycle-delay you pick, tRP same as tRAS has to pass before anything can happen. The same goes for tRC, nothing will happen till that one elapses and tRAS being the only one that is autocorrected if it's ACTIVE timing ends up being too short.

EDIT:
Little history lesson/notes
After ROWs are ACTIVE'ated = tRAS
and are read, they lose charge ~ more like the charge is transferred to the sensing amplifiers
Soo they need to be (p)recharged again.
DDR4 can write data to this cells while they recharge, but every readout is a full loss of charge
tRC = the Row Cycle is scale-able and the end point of this one operation.

You can cheat and just increase it, where nothing will happen till this cycle ends
At the benefits of stability on lower voltage.
Although again, this is cheating and should only be considered on awkward temperatures like XOC or your typical SpaceHeater system
Intel altogether skips this value, as only a clean transition matters
Although intel users do often push tRAS higher and so tRP also higher to cover it
A technique is also to increase tREFI to the maximum and just let the memory time break after the 9th tRFC happens

This way the only thing the OCers could learn is, that tRFC is depending on charge
(tRP, so tRAS - well you get the point)
And the early answers that tRC for tRFC didn't matter and only depends on voltage, where kinda correct but also didn't show the whole picture

There is far back then , but let me reupload it again:
A wonderful 150+ page PDF of Abusing DDR-Heterogeneity
Mr. Donghyuk focuses a lot on the tCL+tWR+tBL topic -> especially for tRAS
1usmus learned from this too but he is an engineer by himself, soo it likely wasn't the only source of information
Cycle-Stacking , or rather "discharge-stacking" is the method that allows such ruleset breaking "rules" to work
This includes tRC-2 or factoring in tSTAG
I hope we get to control tREFI and tAL (time added latency) helping us to calculate stuff tighter and with lower tWR limits
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Donghyuk Lee_DDR-Heterogeneity.pdf (9.33 MB, 11 views)

SiSandra Inter-Core Bandwith 14nm Ryzen global #1 | Twitter
Personal Records
RAM > Viper Steel @ 3466C14 (64.2ns) & Alt | Hynix-MFR 3333CL14 (72.5ns) & Alt

GPU > Gigabyte 970 G1 @ 1595|1900 (Hynix) | RX 580 Red Devil GS @ 1620|2200 (Micron)
CPU > TR 1950X [email protected]1.2v & [email protected]1.365v[105Mhz FSB](3.23Beta)
#Main: 1700X [email protected]1.365v1.73Ghz IMC CL14 (64.2ns)」+ Dark Rock 3 | X370 Taichi 1.0.0.3 ABBA by The Stilt | Viper Steel [PVS416G400C9K]| Gigabyte 970 G1 | Samsung 850 Evo

Last edited by Veii; 08-01-2020 at 09:12 AM.
Veii is online now  
post #4240 of 4347 (permalink) Old 08-01-2020, 09:17 AM
Edgy & on the edge
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,289
Rep: 54 (Unique: 27)
Quote: Originally Posted by Veii View Post
If you've gone down to tRCD 14 instead of 15 - tRDWR 7 would be better than 8
tRCD RD / 2 = tRDWR has to work on 16Gb dimms, but it won't if you waste some latency somewhere

Using low tCWL was on the intel side of things a tweak, as they have tRAS, tRFC, tREFI as scales and a lot of split optimisations on the
tRDWR -> tRRDR
tWRRD -> tRRDD
AMD -> Intel
Side of things
tRC i haven't seen anywhere changable and the "best way" to get lower performance was to drop tCWL
But tCWL <-> tRDWR go hand in hand
If you lower one, you have to up the other one by the same amount

on AMD , tRDWR i found to be next to SCL the biggest perf increase factor
If tRDWR = tRCD RD / 2 won't work
just add a bit of latency on tWRRD, then it will work
Usually it shouldn't need it, only when you go -1 of half tRCD
((tRCD RD/2)-1) on Single Rank dimms works even when you lower tRC -2
I could never post with tRDWR 7 even with tRCDRD 14. I might try again but I don't think it will work.

AMD Bliss
(16 items)
CPU
AMD Ryzen 5 3600 - 2019PGT
Motherboard
MSI X470 Gaming Plus Max - 1.0.0.6
GPU
ASUS GTX 1060 Strix 6GB
RAM
2x8GB G.Skill Trident Z 3600C15 @3800 14-15-12-28-40 1T 1.52V
Hard Drive
Samsung 970 Evo Plus 250GB
Hard Drive
2x Samsung 860 Evo 500GB
Hard Drive
2x Crucial MX500 1TB
Power Supply
Super Flower Leadex II Gold 650W
Cooling
be quiet! Dark Rock 4
Case
Phanteks P350X
Monitor
ASUS VG245HE
Keyboard
Logitech G710+
Mouse
Logitech G502 Hero
Mouse
Logitech G502 Proteus Core
Mousepad
Logitech G440 hardmat
Audio
Asus Cerberus
▲ hide details ▲
rares495 is online now  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (1 members and 1 guests)
Veii
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off