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post #11 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 07:24 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Nonbiter View Post
I'm sorry but reading your comment, I see that you're well intentioned but misinformed.
Funny I thought the same about your comment

1) You're wrong about PBO. It technically functions the same for gen+ and 2nd gen, simply giving the user the option to greatly increase any power limits that are imposed by default and also the ability to run the highest (auto) voltages for longer durations (depending on the level of scalar applied).

2) We know boost clock is only single core, what we didn't know until buying in is that not all cores are created equal and thus necessarily going to be capable of said boost clock (again during single core).

3) So you couldn't be bothered to work out a stable RAM OC and that makes it AMD's fault? on the flipside and in reality most have hit higher clocks on RAM with 2nd gen than could be dreamed of from gen+.

4) Marketing being shady in 2019? No way?! (To clarify I do not condone misleading behaviour, just do not expect otherwise from todays industry and you won't get burned (too much)).

5) You're comparing two completely different CPU's and wondering why there's operational differences? I'll admit that having the chip running highest boost voltage state for UEFI is completely overkill, but afaik it must boot in the state the CPU is going to operate in otherwise what use is POST? It is never going to harm the CPU (unless you didn't install a cooler!) so then it's just being blown out of proportion. Jay is a moron running LN2 mode wondering why all his voltages are jacked up, then fails to either remove or even edit the video when called out on it. Also comparing one guys 80°C+ to your 90°C+ doesn't account for; different ambient temperatures (both room and case), CPU RPM curve (assuming same coolers to begin with), case airlfow, PBO states, actual voltage being supplied vs VID etc....

Prime isn't a real world workload, I personally couldn't give a flying F if my CPU hits 90°C in it since it will never see that outside of that scenario, ever. When people buy a new GPU, is the first thing they do check how fast it can throttle under Furmark?

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post #12 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 07:30 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Nonbiter View Post
I'm sorry but reading your comment, I see that you're well intentioned but misinformed.


First, your 2700x never had PBO. It has PB, PBO is something unique to Zen 2.
Spoiler!
So I have not read your whole comment yet, I just started on it and have a lot to get through. But your very first sentence is wrong. PBO is NOT UNIQUE to Zen 2. PB2 That is, Precision Boost 2 is Unique to Zen 2, its updated from Precision Boost, which is something they introduced with Zen +, and Precision Boost Overdrive was something Introduced with both Zen+ and the Threadripper 2000 Series that allowed us to manipulate Precision Boost. So before calling someone misinformed, you may want to be informed yourself.

From the Horses Mouth Himself:

Here is the Launch Thread made by @elmor himself, in it he links to a PDF called C7H Enthusiasts Highlight V3, which in it, explaining how to manipulate PBO for your Ryzen 2000 CPU:
https://www.overclock.net/forum/27196905-post1.html

I Love it when people think they know everything and try to come in and tell people how they are wrong, and yet it turns out they don't know everything.

I don't claim to know everything, I am still learning every day, which is why I am extremely careful to come in and tell other people they are wrong, its not something that is polite to do regardless, but if you feel the need to do it, you should probably look it up to make sure you are right first.

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post #13 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 07:40 AM
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That was the Video where the guy had LN2 mode enabled, which was the cause of the high temp.

I agree, though, that temps were high. I also understand that a fix has been rolled out and some are reporting lower temps.
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post #14 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 07:41 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by upgraditus View Post
Funny I thought the same about your comment

1) You're wrong about PBO. It technically functions the same for gen+ and 2nd gen, simply giving the user the option to greatly increase any power limits that are imposed by default and also the ability to run the highest (auto) voltages for longer durations (depending on the level of scalar applied).

2) We know boost clock is only single core, what we didn't know until buying in is that not all cores are created equal and thus necessarily going to be capable of said boost clock (again during single core).

3) So you couldn't be bothered to work out a stable RAM OC and that makes it AMD's fault? on the flipside and in reality most have hit higher clocks on RAM with 2nd gen than could be dreamed of from gen+.

4) Marketing being shady in 2019? No way?! (To clarify I do not condone misleading behaviour, just do not expect otherwise from todays industry and you won't get burned (too much)).

5) You're comparing two completely different CPU's and wondering why there's operational differences? I'll admit that having the chip running highest boost voltage state for UEFI is completely overkill, but afaik it must boot in the state the CPU is going to operate in otherwise what use is POST? It is never going to harm the CPU (unless you didn't install a cooler!) so then it's just being blown out of proportion. Jay is a moron running LN2 mode wondering why all his voltages are jacked up, then fails to either remove or even edit the video when called out on it. Also comparing one guys 80°C+ to your 90°C+ doesn't account for; different ambient temperatures (both room and case), CPU RPM curve (assuming same coolers to begin with), case airlfow, PBO states, actual voltage being supplied vs VID etc....

Prime isn't a real world workload, I personally couldn't give a flying F if my CPU hits 90°C in it since it will never see that outside of that scenario, ever. When people buy a new GPU, is the first thing they do check how fast it can throttle under Furmark?
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post #15 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 08:02 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Nonbiter View Post
I'm sorry but reading your comment, I see that you're well intentioned but misinformed.


First, your 2700x never had PBO. It has PB, PBO is something unique to Zen 2. PB is stock with the new 3rd gen chips, PBO must be enabled in the BIOS or through Ryzen Master. If every motherboard manufacturer's BIOS is built to spec, then PBO comes natively disabled. Auto = disabled, to turn on PBO, it must be set to enabled. There's been a lot of people running tests and they say that as of right now PBO doesn't make much of a difference. I personally have seen a slight improvement in CB scores, but I don't have adequate cooling and that's a large factor with PBO. I'm still waiting on Phanteks to get more AM4 brackets so I'm using the Wraith Prism... anybody that reads this, definitely upgrade to a better cooler for anything besides the 3700x.



Second, AMD has clarified that the max boost clocks do not mean all core boost, it is single core boost only. If you're getting 4.35-4.4 all core on heavy loads, that's actually pretty good and should count yourself lucky. I've seen people complaining their 3900x doesn't even boost that high all core.
Spoiler!
OK I got through the rest of your post. Its WAYY to much to address. First, you have a LOT MORE research to do. There is a lot you don't understand, and I don't have the time to teach you, I have been with this CPU since before Launch, and have tested it a million different ways, and there is still a lot I have to learn as well, but so many of your statements were just downright inaccurate. Other things you seem to understand just fine, so you are on the right track, just before coming in to try to correct someone, make sure you have the facts right yourself.

Yes The Stilt said that you need to make sure you use Manual Voltage before playing with Per CCX OCing. Thats why I mentioned I used Manual Voltage in my post, and if you find my post where I released my script to Per CCX OC on Windows Startup, you will see laid out clearly in my directions to only use this tool with Manual Voltage. Otherwise it is completely safe, you just have to know what you are doing.

Like everything else, there is a silcon lottery involved, so not everyones chip will be capable of hitting the same Overclocks at the same voltages, and I would agree that at least in my testing, this generations PBO seems pointless to activate. But you are simply dead wrong that PBO is new to this generation, it did exist last generation, and us enthusiasts were using it to manipulate the algorithm to get our ALL Core Overclocks to boost as high as our Manual Overclocks would, but still get the benifit of having the lightly threaded boosts. This was a thing, even if you didn't know it was.

Second, anyone who could analyze this launch with a brain and were familiar with previous Ryzen architectures knew that it would be VERY UNLIKELY that you would be able to get the Boost Clock Advertised on all Cores. Thats just AMD Marketing, if you were smart you realized that before the chips were even released. I was not complaining about that in my post, I expected that, plus I work in the industry so not only do I read all reviews to stay informed, but I get to play with the chips myself to learn the behaviors. My post was not at all complaining about not being able to hit all core overclocks at the advertised boost speeds, if you think thats what I was saying then you need to read it again.

Anyways, I have too much to do to keep addressing your Post point by point, I will let others do it for me, just before you go trying to correct someone in the future, you should probably read up yourself to make sure you are correct. You are on the right track for about half of your post, but the other half needs some work my friend. Good Luck with your OC adventures!

P.S. I am not a big fan of Robert Hallock or his marketing myself, but you are also wrong about Ryzen + having that same high idle Voltage behavior. It was HIGHLY dependant on the motherboard you put your chip in, and whether or not it was using Precision Boost at stock, and how aggressive the Motherboard manufacturer pushed the clocks and voltage, but it absolutely went as high as 1.5v, a quick search on this very forum will find thousands of threads of people worried about it, so again, just do your research brother.

I appreciate that you were trying to come in and inform me, I am not trying to be a bastard back to you, you also seem to be well intentioned, but you just have some more reading to do. I happen to agree with you on AMD Marketing though, its a joke.

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post #16 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 08:20 AM
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With the 3700X low default 88w limit I'm sure in my case PBO is allowing it to maintain higher clocks, since it will easily reach 100w+ under full load with manual OC. On auto settings it didn't really seem to achieve anything though, even if used in conjunction with the auto oc mode.

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post #17 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 08:26 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by rdr09 View Post
That was the Video where the guy had LN2 mode enabled, which was the cause of the high temp.

I agree, though, that temps were high. I also understand that a fix has been rolled out and some are reporting lower temps.
Yeah J Messed up in that video. But these are a lot of cores crammed into small chiplets, it makes sense its hot. And this Behavior with High Voltages is not new, the same exact complaints were coming from the Zen + launch, but because that launch had no where near the same adoption rate, people don't realize that. Zen IS DESIGNED to run at that high voltages under lightly threaded loads, this was introduced in Zen + when they Fixed XFR and added Precision Boost. As someone who manipulated Precision Boost by using PBO, I had my 2700x boosting to 4.2Ghz at 1.4v for All Core Loads, but automatically boosting to 4.4Ghz for Single and Dual Core Loads, and my Voltage would peak at 1.48v (and thats because I used an Offset, without the Offset it would peak above 1.5v) and this was totally normal and expected. My CPU is now in a Server more then a year later (I bought it at launch) and is still boosting the same way and is completely fine. Will we see Degredation eventually? That I don't know, the architecture hasn't been around long enough for us to know, as far as I know it will die the day after the Warranty runs out. But I do know that this behavior was how the CPU was designed.

Also the only reason I quoted you for this response @rdr09 was to agree with you that using that J Video to make your point about high voltages is not a good look, once you realize that it turns out J actually messed up and was in the wrong mode, and didn't know what he was doing. People make mistakes, just usually they correct them afterwards, and when they don't it leads to a pretty decent section of up and coming "Enthusiasts" to be misinformed.

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post #18 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 08:28 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by upgraditus View Post
With the 3700X low default 88w limit I'm sure in my case PBO is allowing it to maintain higher clocks, since it will easily reach 100w+ under full load with manual OC. On auto settings it didn't really seem to achieve anything though, even if used in conjunction with the auto oc mode.
I unfortunately do not have a 3700x to play with, but My 3800x will be here tommorow which I will be putting in my Crosshair VI Hero Board until my Crosshair VIII arrives, so I will get to play around more with the 1 Chiplet design, but it may turn out that the current PBO Algorithm works better with the 1 Chiplet design, I can't wait to jump in!

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post #19 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 08:29 AM
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It's worth the hype, just not for gaming. Especially when you consider nearly 20% IPC gain without a clock regression and basically +100% per core AVX2 performance.

Only gamers care about overclocking 4 CCX parts. For most people the precision boost algorithm is better , I found the same with the R7 2700X. You will most likely drop your top end clock on low thread workloads if you try to manually overclock (except on Ryzen 7 2700 / Ryzen 5 2600 if you manage to get 4.1-4.2GHz). It's worth overclocking R5 3600 if you can get 4.2+ GHz all core.

Ryzen 5 3600 : 4.2GHz rated boost ---> exceeds R7 1700 series performance ... essentially a gaming chip when overclocked
Ryzen 5 3600X : 4.4GHz rated boost ---> exceeds R7 2700X boost
Ryzen 7 3700X : 4.4GHz rated boost
Ryzen 7 3800X : 4.5GHz rated boost
Ryzen 9 3900X : 4.6GHz rated boost --> your Intel alternative is at least $1K and if your workload is well threaded this is simply a better option due to power and motherboard savings


What needs work:
1. PBO on Zen 2 was mostly defective at launch, it uses more power without providing more boost. 4.6GHz seems to be a ceiling that is barely reached on R9 3900X with PBO / manual per CCX overclocking.

2. Zen 2 Linux issues with systemd. Due to Windows' terrible scheduler this should be fixed ASAP.

3. Clearer delineation on what the max EDC / TDC limits of the motherboards are. Ryzen Master tries to accomplish this somewhat. "Stock" is limited to 142W and 140A for every board.

i.e. if you buy a Gigabyte Gaming X you get 450W PPT, 250A TDC (sustained current limit), 300A EDC which is ridiculous for the parts on it. If you buy an Aorus Master you get 900W PPT , 480A TDC, 600A EDC. If you buy Aorus Xtreme it has 1200W PPT, 540A TDC, 600A EDC.


4. AVX2 drops clocks faster probably, there ought to be an indication in Ryzen Master or other monitoring utilities. For Intel there is an AVX offset which is lame (Nvidia driver trigger it sometimes) but a sustained AVX2 workload indication would be useful. AVX2 properly implemented achieves much higher work output , if the clock penalty is low enough.


https://indico.cern.ch/event/327306/...lConundrum.pdf
https://twiki.cern.ch/twiki/bin/view/LCG/VIHaswell
"The benefit on AVX2 instructions (as generated by GCC compiler) is the expected one for what concern vectorization of integers and fma."


https://twiki.cern.ch/twiki/bin/view/Main/VIAvxCost

  • On SandyBridge AVX costs 4 watts and does not affect clock speed.
  • On Haswell it costs only 1.25 (even 0 or "negative") watts but brings the clock back to nominal.

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post #20 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 08:54 AM
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Ryzen not for Gaming? R5 1600 Stock.
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