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post #551 of 562 (permalink) Old 02-12-2020, 08:37 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ryokoseigo View Post
After reading the post I linked, I closed up my case. didn't help.(case has 3 fans blowing up from the bottom and 6 at the top, so should have a pretty decent upward flow, and the bottom of the case is currently raised to improve the flow) I did a check with near full stock(4.0ghz @ 1.2 with no memory OC, or any other setting changed) and it still failed. I lowered my gpu's power limit so its output at 480W and it did NOT fail. So yeah, I will try a run again, with the old power limits and a VRM fan and see if it ever fails. I figure, if it doesn't then its somehow the PSU is either pulling too many watts, or overloading the 12V rail. If It does fail, then its certainly the VRM's.

I never had the problem until now because I was running my gpu's at lower power usage as my cpu was connected to a 900W UPS and it would shut down if it spiked too high. Since unplugging it from that, I raised the limits and was met with this problem.

Sidenote for anyone interested-
I learned that ECO mode stays beyond bios changes which is really weird. Or my PC is glitched lol. I did a full bio short, and it was still enabled. Took me quite a bit to figure out how the heck to get the setting to show up in the bios... and annoyingly it was already off, I guess I just needed to make it appear for it to reset. So if you don't have PBO enabled, you can't disable ECO mode.
Any chance something is shorting to ground? Maybe a fastener fell behind the mobo or something like that?
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post #552 of 562 (permalink) Old 02-13-2020, 03:13 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by oreonutz View Post
Its possible this is still a VRM Issue, but a Graphics card VRM Issue. That is interesting. How is the cooling on your GPU's VRM? If it only happens when the GPU has a higher power, then it does make sense that is has to do with the power draw of your Graphics card, either the PSU 12v Rail (Which doesn't seem likely unless their is an issue with your PSU, considering it can handle 83a at 12v, thats almost 1000w right there), or with the Power Delivery of the VRM on the GPU itself. I have the 1080ti Version of your Card, and the Hybrid part of it is that it uses the Fan to take care of the Card's VRM Thermals. Its possible there is some kind of Thermal Pad mess up where you aren't getting full coverage on the VRM's, its hard to say, but its possible that is your issue.

Another way to rule out your PSU without having to actually pull it out and unhook it and hook up another, is to simply open up your side panel again, grab another power supply you have lying around, unhook only the PCIE Connectors on your GPU's, then Plug in just the PCIE Connectors from the second power supply, Jump the 24 pin on the extra power supply and turn it on, then power up your PC. Now you will have your GPU Powered by only the extra Power supply, and the rest of your system powered off your original power supply. Now OC the Cards again, and see if the problem happens. If you get through a day or more without issues, then its likely to focus in on something with your PSU, if it still happens, then its likely it has little do with your PSU, and more to do with the VRM's or some other aspect of your GPU. Weird issue, but an Overheating VRM on the GPU would explain the issue.

So turns out I Did have a spare PSU, I thought I sold it hahaha. And even more surprising, I had a single paperclip in my work bag. (is it 100% safe to have the paperclip as a jumper semi long term? I'm not even sure if current goes through it or not) I currently have only 1 GPU running off of the main power supply now. Will test tonight if I can. I checked if the EVGA card has VRM monitor temps, and I believe it does, although I'm not 100% sure I know which temp it is. Either way, the highest temp is 71C, which simply isn't very high. It's convenient if its the GPU, as its obviously the one that's driving the display, and well RMA is easy and I think EVGA offers parallel RMA's. However, if it doesn't crash, then I guess the only culprit that makes sense is the PSU. Also under warranty, but unless corsair offers similar RMA methods, its a real bummer to have to completly swap PSUs for a temporary situation. I guess I could still technically blame the mobo VRM's, but I just don't get how that would be the case. MPC uses less cpu then streaming a video in browser in most cases, so it seems mostly nonsense that an HDR video would push the VRMS too hot while literally doing anything else on the CPU doesn't.

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post #553 of 562 (permalink) Old 02-13-2020, 06:05 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ryokoseigo View Post
So turns out I Did have a spare PSU, I thought I sold it hahaha. And even more surprising, I had a single paperclip in my work bag. (is it 100% safe to have the paperclip as a jumper semi long term? I'm not even sure if current goes through it or not) I currently have only 1 GPU running off of the main power supply now. Will test tonight if I can. I checked if the EVGA card has VRM monitor temps, and I believe it does, although I'm not 100% sure I know which temp it is. Either way, the highest temp is 71C, which simply isn't very high. It's convenient if its the GPU, as its obviously the one that's driving the display, and well RMA is easy and I think EVGA offers parallel RMA's. However, if it doesn't crash, then I guess the only culprit that makes sense is the PSU. Also under warranty, but unless corsair offers similar RMA methods, its a real bummer to have to completly swap PSUs for a temporary situation. I guess I could still technically blame the mobo VRM's, but I just don't get how that would be the case. MPC uses less cpu then streaming a video in browser in most cases, so it seems mostly nonsense that an HDR video would push the VRMS too hot while literally doing anything else on the CPU doesn't.
It is definitely 100% safe to run with the paperclip in long term, jumping the Green Cable Pin and a Black Cable Pin. Green is the PSU On Pin, and it works by Shorting to Ground. So no current flows through, all it does is complete the circuit which allows the PSU to turn on, and when the Circuit is broken, thats what tells the PSU to turn off. The Only Danger in running with a Paperclip Long Term is accidentally somehow shorting something else to ground by touching the Paperclip with some other live conductor. As long as you are careful not to do that, then you are all good!

Yeah my leaning theory right now is definitely the VRM on the GPU. If you have HWinfo open the VRM Temps are the ones under EVGA ICX Labeled PWR1 through PWR5. While 71c is definitely within spec, I believe I remember mine getting somewhere near that too before I put a full cover water block on mine, We have to remember that this is just a spot check, and not necessarily the hottest Temperature on the VRM. Also depending on where EVGA Placed these sensors it could still be significantly hotter inside the component. Its really hard to say without being able to diagnose myself though, they could be completely fine. I just find it weird that every time you OC the card and then put it under a workload your issue happens.

Also I wouldn't count out your Boards VRM just yet, while I agree it seems unlikely at this point, the type of issue you are experiencing is right in line with OCP/OVP/OTP. And when these protections are tripped on Ryzen chips, a good amount of the time its actually the SOC VRM that is the issue, simply because they typically don't need to be overbuilt like the CPU side, but under certain Memory Heavy tasks, the SOC can get stressed, especially when pushing up the IF, so it is definitely possible that this iis the issue. but I would only investigate that further if your testing shows its definitely not the GPU.

If I were you I would be trying to replicate the exact same situation that makes the system shut down, just with the only difference being the Graphics cards being plugged into the PSU. For Troubleshooting sake, you want to create the exact conditions that caused the problem, just with one change, in this case the PSU. This way depending on the outcome of the test, you can be reasonably sure what the problem is, or at least what the problem is not. If the problem happens again, its likely that its not Your PSU, although there is one more test I would run to make sure (I would plug the EPU and 24 Pin into the extra PSU as well, this way you take your main PSU out of the equation, and see if the problem happens again with everything plugged into the extra PSU). If The Problem does happen again, and then you moved everything to the new PSU and it still happened, then I would definitely focus on your graphics cards as the issue. If however when you are testing just the Graphics cards plugged into the Extra PSU, you get through a day without issues, then you can be reasonably sure your Graphics cards aren't the issue, and start to focus your energy on Your PSU, Mobo, Or CPU. Basically just trouble shooting 101. Swap out parts, one by one, until the problem is eliminated, then isolate the part to make sure its repeatable. Then once you have found your part, if it ends up being your GPU for instance, there is a chance you can fix it on your own just by opening it up and examining it. But we will cross that road if/when we get there.

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post #554 of 562 (permalink) Old 02-15-2020, 12:36 AM
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I picked up a minor issue with my setup which are as follow:

AMD Ryzen 9 3950X @ 4.2ghz with 1.1875vcore
MSI Meg X570 Ace bios v180
4 x 8GB Gskill Flare X DDR4 3200 CL14 @ 3733 CL16
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Corsair HX1200

Now when running benchmarks putting full stress on the processor it would complete whatever I throw at it without an issue with max ccd temps being 77c at most depending on ambient temps. Now issue I have is my computer would be doing nothing, just being on in Windows 10, I'll be away for a couple minutes and when I come back the system restarted.

I have checked VRM temps and all good with at most 55 to 60 under extreme cpu load. GPU is basically running stock but with a Kraken G12 and Corsair H55 fitting to it for cooling so the vrm and memory is not covered, but I have a fan blowing over the relevant area and it seem cool to the touch. I did try to run the system stock and with PBO and the same restarts seem to happen so doubt it is the overclock on the processor. If I play games, it also does not seem to restart at all, but I'll do a longer game run to see if it does.

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post #555 of 562 (permalink) Old 02-15-2020, 12:52 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by VPII View Post
I picked up a minor issue with my setup which are as follow:

AMD Ryzen 9 3950X @ 4.2ghz with 1.1875vcore
MSI Meg X570 Ace bios v180
4 x 8GB Gskill Flare X DDR4 3200 CL14 @ 3733 CL16
Palit Geforce RTX 2080 Ti Gamingpro OC
Corsair HX1200

Now when running benchmarks putting full stress on the processor it would complete whatever I throw at it without an issue with max ccd temps being 77c at most depending on ambient temps. Now issue I have is my computer would be doing nothing, just being on in Windows 10, I'll be away for a couple minutes and when I come back the system restarted.

I have checked VRM temps and all good with at most 55 to 60 under extreme cpu load. GPU is basically running stock but with a Kraken G12 and Corsair H55 fitting to it for cooling so the vrm and memory is not covered, but I have a fan blowing over the relevant area and it seem cool to the touch. I did try to run the system stock and with PBO and the same restarts seem to happen so doubt it is the overclock on the processor. If I play games, it also does not seem to restart at all, but I'll do a longer game run to see if it does.
This is likely a Windows Related Issue, or possibly a driver related one. They both like to play games from time to time. If this is something new you have never seen before, I would go through your Event Logs, look for any recent error (Outside the common errors that pop up every single day, the trick is to look for anything that has just popped up within the last week or so, that you don't see further down in the logs), and any recent update. If you have a recent update, uninstall them, block Windows Update from Reinstalling them, and see if this fixes the problem. Easiest way to stop Windows Update from Installing the latest updates is set the "Delay Updates For" feature to 30 and 90 Respectively. This way after you uninstall recent updates, as long as this recent update was within the last 30 days, you don't have to worry about it being reinstalled (Thats if its a security related update, if its a feature related update that the second "Delay Updates For" feature, so if you set 90 for that one, then as long as the update was released in the last 90 days, it won't be installed again automatically. I tend to leave these settings here, because that seems to be the sweet spot for Microsoft to Iron out their update issues, and get Updates up that actually won't break your system by the 30 day and 90 day mark respectively. Keep In mind, if you are using Windows 10 Home, I don't think this is an available feature, in this case you will have to resort to one of the other methods for blocking updates, the next easiest way is simply unplugging your internet.)

There are other more permanent ways of blocking Windows Updates as well, if you like I will send you how. Hint, One way involves restricting Security Rights to the Download Folder inside C:\Windows\Software Distrubution\ to Deny "Trusted Installer" and "System" Access to those folders, this stops Windows Updates from ever installing another update until you restore those rights, and so far they have not found a way to get around this.

The Other way, is by simply setting up yourself a WSUS Server in a VM, and Pointing your Workstation to that server via Registry or Group Policy, with the correct settings set, this will stop Windows Updates from ever installing another Update without your Express Approval inside the WSUS Server VM.

Also, common Driver conflicts to look at for random reboots are your Network Drivers, including Wifi Drivers, and Video Card Drivers.

Hope this helps!

-MattTheTech

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post #556 of 562 (permalink) Old 02-15-2020, 04:34 AM
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I know this has probably been asked here before but what is the safe max all core voltage?


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post #557 of 562 (permalink) Old 02-15-2020, 04:54 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by bl1tzk1213g View Post
I know this has probably been asked here before but what is the safe max all core voltage?


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That depends at the Temperature of the Chip and current load at said voltage. It also differs from Chip to Chip, and from cooler to cooler. Keep your chip below 85c during your heaviest all core load possible, and you will be fine, whatever the voltage is that gets you there. Most 3950x will arrive there at 1.3v, but depending on your cooling and quality of silicon, you may find that you can run 1.35v under a high current all core load and still just barely hit 85c. There is this myth that there is a Max Safe Voltage, with these highly variable chips, there is not one, but there are safe Temperatures. This is a Gross Generalization, and more of a Guideline then a rule, but if you are un sure of what you are doing, just keep your chip under 85c, no matter the Voltage used, you will be fine, as long as your chip does not cross that threshold under a heavy current load. Most people find that somewhere between 1.25v and 1.325v, but again it depends on your specific chip. Start at 1.25v, see what your chip can do there, how hot it gets under a Blender all core workload, and go from there. Hope this helps.

EDIT: I also didn't mean to insinuate that if your chip hits 86c all the sudden you are in danger of killing your chip. That is not the case at all, in fact these chips can take quite a bit more heat in a transient situation and be just fine, but assuming you are planning to run your chip as a daily driver, and looking for the max overclock to do so, and still remain on the safe side, then for every day operation, if you chip stays at 85c or below, even all day every day at 85c for a year, you will cause no harm to your chip, at least from what I have seen so far, and as evidenced by AMD themselves. So if you want to be on the safe side, shoot for that being your max Temp, find whatever voltage gets you there under a full all core load, or just under it, and you are good to go, nothing to worry about. You can absolutely go over that for Benchmark Runs, and be completely fine as well, but for an every day driver, this is the safest course of action as there is no "Throttle" mode at a certain TJMax Temperature like on Intel, when in OC Mode (Meaning you have set voltage Manually), So just be aware of that, Tune accordingly, and you will be 100 Percent fine! Good Luck!

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Last edited by oreonutz; 02-15-2020 at 05:11 AM.
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post #558 of 562 (permalink) Old 02-15-2020, 05:16 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by oreonutz View Post
That depends at the Temperature of the Chip and current load at said voltage. It also differs from Chip to Chip, and from cooler to cooler. Keep your chip below 85c during your heaviest all core load possible, and you will be fine, whatever the voltage is that gets you there. Most 3950x will arrive there at 1.3v, but depending on your cooling and quality of silicon, you may find that you can run 1.35v under a high current all core load and still just barely hit 85c. There is this myth that there is a Max Safe Voltage, with these highly variable chips, there is not one, but there are safe Temperatures. This is a Gross Generalization, and more of a Guideline then a rule, but if you are un sure of what you are doing, just keep your chip under 85c, no matter the Voltage used, you will be fine, as long as your chip does not cross that threshold under a heavy current load. Most people find that somewhere between 1.25v and 1.325v, but again it depends on your specific chip. Start at 1.25v, see what your chip can do there, how hot it gets under a Blender all core workload, and go from there. Hope this helps.



EDIT: I also didn't mean to insinuate that if your chip hits 86c all the sudden you are in danger of killing your chip. That is not the case at all, in fact these chips can take quite a bit more heat in a transient situation and be just fine, but assuming you are planning to run your chip as a daily driver, and looking for the max overclock to do so, and still remain on the safe side, then for every day operation, if you chip stays at 85c or below, even all day every day at 85c for a year, you will cause no harm to your chip, at least from what I have seen so far, and as evidenced by AMD themselves. So if you want to be on the safe side, shoot for that being your max Temp, find whatever voltage gets you there under a full all core load, or just under it, and you are good to go, nothing to worry about. You can absolutely go over that for Benchmark Runs, and be completely fine as well, but for an every day driver, this is the safest course of action as there is no "Throttle" mode at a certain TJMax Temperature like on Intel, when in OC Mode (Meaning you have set voltage Manually), So just be aware of that, Tune accordingly, and you will be 100 Percent fine! Good Luck!


Thank you for your generous reply. Im at 1.34-1.35v load and not hitting 85c yet. Ill stay there for now


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post #559 of 562 (permalink) Old 02-15-2020, 05:43 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by bl1tzk1213g View Post
Thank you for your generous reply. Im at 1.34-1.35v load and not hitting 85c yet. Ill stay there for now


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Cool. A lot of people would call that a bit high, and I would tend to agree under a heavy workload, but it really depends on the Temperature you are hitting, and the amount of Current (Amps) you push into it. I don't know the kind of workload you do with your PC, but you generally want to hit it with the hardest workflow you have to validate that it will be fine even under the harshest of conditions. One of my Go To Tests will be an Hour Blender Run, simply because its a real workload, that uses AVX Instruction set, so it will really hit your CPU hard. There are of course other tests that hit your CPU even harder, but if you don't think your CPU will ever be under a workload heavier then an All Core Blender Run, then this is usually a good Test to Run. Pick something like the BMW Render Test, but either change the Resolution to be higher, or Just Run it back to back for about an hour. If you can get through an hour of a Blender Run, without crashing or going above 85c, and your computer will never run a workload higher than this, then I would call that perfect, even if its 1.35v. But obviously if you have a workload that is even more intense than Blender, than I would validate with that instead. If you are just gaming, then Blender is perfect because even CPU Intensive games won't quite reach the level it does, so its a great stress test for those situations.

Anyways, Happy to help, Enjoy your bad ass processor! I know I love mine!

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Samsung 850/860 Evo (x3 Raid 0 Game Drive)
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WD Black 4TB (x2 Raid 0 Storage Drive)
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EKWB Acrylic 1080ti FTW Block
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post #560 of 562 (permalink) Old 02-15-2020, 04:00 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by oreonutz View Post
Cool. A lot of people would call that a bit high, and I would tend to agree under a heavy workload, but it really depends on the Temperature you are hitting, and the amount of Current (Amps) you push into it. I don't know the kind of workload you do with your PC, but you generally want to hit it with the hardest workflow you have to validate that it will be fine even under the harshest of conditions. One of my Go To Tests will be an Hour Blender Run, simply because its a real workload, that uses AVX Instruction set, so it will really hit your CPU hard. There are of course other tests that hit your CPU even harder, but if you don't think your CPU will ever be under a workload heavier then an All Core Blender Run, then this is usually a good Test to Run. Pick something like the BMW Render Test, but either change the Resolution to be higher, or Just Run it back to back for about an hour. If you can get through an hour of a Blender Run, without crashing or going above 85c, and your computer will never run a workload higher than this, then I would call that perfect, even if its 1.35v. But obviously if you have a workload that is even more intense than Blender, than I would validate with that instead. If you are just gaming, then Blender is perfect because even CPU Intensive games won't quite reach the level it does, so its a great stress test for those situations.

Anyways, Happy to help, Enjoy your bad ass processor! I know I love mine!
Interestingly the cpu chip will tell you pretty quickly. There is no way with my cpu I can use any voltage higher than 1.25v, maybe 1.2625v at most otherwise temps would shoot into the 90C pretty quickly. Taken the first 3900X I had, I could easily use 1.3 to 1.35vcore and temps would be below 85C, but when I got my second 3900X I could not even try 1.3v as it would go into the 90C barrier pretty quickly. Now the clocks I get with these two chips which cannot handle high vcore is better than the one with which I could easily run the higher vcore.

AMD Ryzen 9 3950X
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