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post #11 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 02:15 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by J0RDY2024 View Post
Hi, so this is my first post. I just got in my AIO (Corsair 240mm) a couple of days ago and began trying to OC my new Ryzen 5 3600. I've done some research in the past and did a lot more yesterday to try to understand what I'm doing/what's safe/etc., but there's so much conflicting information and there is still so much I don't know, so I have a lot of questions and am looking for a little help.

I have read a decent bit from people saying that there is no point in overclocking this CPU because it cannot be done "safely" while still getting any meaningful gains, so I'm not sure if that is the general consensus, but I'd still like to try. If that is your opinion though, feel free to let me know. I do not want to damage or degrade my CPU, but I do want to push it and see how much I can get out of it (even if there will be no noticeable day-to-day gain). This is my first PC build and I am just falling in love with everything about it and am super intrigued by overclocking. My plan/hope is to get started in Ryzen Master and then when I find an OC I like, try to get the same thing going through BIOS (maybe tweak it more from there, maybe not, if my knowledge at that point permits it/if there is anything left to do).

So the first thing I would love some input on is voltage. In Ryzen Master, there is only one input for voltage (at least that I'm aware of - "Peak Core(s) Voltage"), so if anyone talks about anything more than that, please explain what you are talking about and what I need to do to work with that. But I'll just be talking about that voltage. I've read that a "safe" voltage is any of 1.4, 1.35, 1.25, and that there is no general, all-encompassing "safe" voltage. I would love to know what y'all look to as a general rule of thumb for max voltage on this CPU or if you also think there is no magic "safe" number. Right now I've mostly been playing around with OCs with voltages around 1.25 V.

I thought that should be fine since the default voltage number there is closer to 1.3-1.4, but I was reading a Reddit thread discussing this exactly and someone was saying that default is very different than when you do a manual all-core OC and that that should be done at a much lower voltage. He said that the max "safe" voltage for any R5 3600 is different and that you can find it by putting the CPU to default with PBO on and running Prime 95 Small FFTs, and while that is going on, opening HWInfo and monitoring the voltage "SVI2 TFN CPU". He said the minimum or average that this number hits under load is the max voltage one should be setting for an all-core OC like I am (at least if I was understanding everything he said correctly). For his 3900X, this was determined to be 1.212 V so he's saying he cannot safely OC past that. At that voltage, he could only get to 4.3 GHz, and with the CPU on default with PBO he was getting single-core boosts up to 4.6 GHz, so this was the basis of his argument that it isn't worth overclocking his CPU either.

I tried to determine my "safe" voltage this way and the number I was seeing was around 1.08-1.09 V...Does what he's saying/my number sound right?? I surely hope that is not my max safe voltage. Running the same test with default + PBO and with a 4.3 GHz all-core OC at 1.25 V, that number was the exact same (1.08-1.09 V), so I'm not sure if that means anything, but if that number isn't changing, I don't see how the tested OC is any better or worse for the CPU based on what he's saying alone as my setting it above that determined max voltage.

Also if anyone has any comments about my current OC, they're more than welcome. I still plan to mess with it more when I get time, but right now its at 4.3 GHz with 1.25 V. It made it through Prime 95 for an hour with no issues (max temp 78 C). I let it run for 10 minutes in Prime 95 Small and it hit a max temp of 78 C and was fine (though it was only 10 minutes). In Fortnite at Ultra settings it never gets above 51 C (GPU is heavily limiting here; I have a bad one). And in Cinebench R20, the max temp I saw was 63 C with a score of 3670. Also, from looking around that score seems a little low - am I just imagining things or am I right to be wishing for more there? And is there anything I can do to get that score up aside from simply cranking up the OC more or nah?

Also, if I'm running a test in Prime 95 and some of the workers have an error and stop while the rest keep going, even though it didn't crash, that's not a stable OC, right?

Okay, that's enough for now. Please provide any feedback on anything you can. I a very open/eager to learn. I'd also be happy to answer any questions anyone has about my setting/PC components/etc. Also sorry this was so long. Thank you everyone!
You were given alot of sound information!

But for peeps to be able to help you you need to at least get some specs up about your PC and some screenshots of HWINFO64.

As that voltage sounds awfuly low for prime95 small FFTs, i would only expect that voltage if your CPU was seriously overheating and seeing you are using an AIO that should not be the case.

And you have mentioned using PBO, is that on "Auto"

Most people would have a number of questons they would like to ask, but you need to get your specs up first so we know what you are working with ......

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post #12 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 03:06 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by rares495 View Post
1.4V is very safe for 12nm. Not even a hint of degradation.
Absolutely not, it depends how you can cool it. One thing is having fast voltage changes depending on load like pbo, but constant 1.4v under all core load will cause issue with time.

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post #13 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 03:11 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by mongoled View Post
I think this is a bit misleading (I understand that was not your intention) that a few people have posted "4.6Ghz" and than dissappeared without backing up those overclocks with data is a bit disingenuous.

Most people who are actually testing the CPUs throughly and with custom watercooling are maxing out at around 4.4Ghz/4.5Ghz and that is with alot of heat output.

The OP as you have suggested is probably best going with PBO and some BCLK adjustments. The only reason I would vouch for an manual all core overclock is if you really need all cores to be running to the hilt for specific multithreaded application, otherwise its not worth the hassle.

For my use case I am going to drop the manual overclock and stick with the BCLK, PBO EDC bug, CPU vCore positive offset and vCore LLC droop, as in this way I am getting the best of both worlds. High single core boost speeds and good balance of all core performance.

PBO all core performance is slighly behind manual overlcock all core performance, but thermals are better and so is power draw.
If you can go over the 4.2 boost clock with like just 1.2v, why not ocing? It all depends on the op chip quality, trying is free

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post #14 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 10:24 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by DAM20 View Post
If you can go over the 4.2 boost clock with like just 1.2v, why not ocing? It all depends on the op chip quality, trying is free
There is nothing wrong with trying and I did not say the OP should not try.

My point was that telling the OP who is new to overclocking that people are hitting "4.6Ghz" all core is not really helpful IMHO as it creates a false perception of what results they can achieve thats all.....

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post #15 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 11:02 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by DAM20 View Post
Absolutely not, it depends how you can cool it. One thing is having fast voltage changes depending on load like pbo, but constant 1.4v under all core load will cause issue with time.
No, it won't.

There isn't a single case of degradation on 12nm with just 1.4V

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post #16 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 11:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I’d be happy to provide more info for anyone who is curious. My system consists of a Ryzen 5 3600 and a Corsair H100i with Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut thermal paste. The radiator is front mounted in a push/pull configuration with the 2 included ML 120mm fans on the inside and 2 of my random brand (47.8 CFM, 1200 RPM I think) RGB case fans on the outside. In total the case has 6 of those random brand fans. The case is a Cooler Master MasterBox NR600. Mobo is ASRock X570 Extreme 4 WiFi. PSU is EVGA 700 Watt BR 80% Bronze. RAM is G.Skill Ripjaws V at 3600 MHz C16 (IF Clock is at 1800 MHz). Not sure if anything else is relevant but if so, let me know.

How can I post screenshots? I’ve never participated in a forum like this but I thought it said I couldn’t post pics with my membership level, or something like that.

And yes, I mentioned PBO. I believe it was on default but I’ve been struggling with PBO today. I tried to redo the test today with what I thought was again PBO w default settings but this time I got a different number for SVI2 TFN (I think it was like 1.19 V this time). But again when I closed HWInfo, switched to my 4.3 GHz OC, and reopened HWInfo in Prime95 Small, it was the same 1.19 V, so I have concluded that I don’t know what I’m doing at all with this part. My computer also crashed this time in Prime 95 Small with PBO with PPT turned up as well as with PBO on default, both in less than 2 minutes.

I was also able to tinker with my OC a little and the lowest voltage I could get the all core 4.3 GHz stable at was 1.2375 V. That was idling around 34 C, 51 C max in Fortnite w epic settings, and a max of 78 C in Prime 95 Small, all perfectly stable. I believe it hit a max temp in Cinebench R20 of 61 C and scored 3715. Is there any way this OC is NOT safer and better than stock or PBO?? I know I obviously don’t fully understand everything at play here, but I would love someone to explain it to me. I’ve never seen any core frequency go above the 4.2 GHz it gets stock without this OC and with the OC it’s at considerably lower temps in any application compared to stock or PBO.
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post #17 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 11:27 PM - Thread Starter
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And I had no intentions of ever leaving it like this, but was able to get it to 4.5 GHz at 1.4 V and 4.6 GHz at 1.4 V w SMT disabled (never tried more voltage and don’t plant to), but those weren’t really stable. They could run Cinebench and games fine without getting too hot, but in Prime95, some of the workers would have an error and stop. 4.4 GHz at 1.4 V was stable and good but I was still scared of that high of a voltage and couldn’t get it stable with less.

Anyway, everyone keeps saying PBO is better, but I clearly am lost with that and have only experienced 0% gains with more temperature. So any guidance in getting the most out of that would also be helpful.
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post #18 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-27-2020, 12:30 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by J0RDY2024 View Post
And I had no intentions of ever leaving it like this, but was able to get it to 4.5 GHz at 1.4 V and 4.6 GHz at 1.4 V w SMT disabled (never tried more voltage and don’t plant to), but those weren’t really stable. They could run Cinebench and games fine without getting too hot, but in Prime95, some of the workers would have an error and stop. 4.4 GHz at 1.4 V was stable and good but I was still scared of that high of a voltage and couldn’t get it stable with less.

Anyway, everyone keeps saying PBO is better, but I clearly am lost with that and have only experienced 0% gains with more temperature. So any guidance in getting the most out of that would also be helpful.
Good info re specs!

"Everyone keeps saying PBO is better", as I explained this is dependent on how you use your PC.

Is you rig going to be used as an "all rounder" or are you going to be doing intensive all core compute computations where reducing the time to complete the job is all important ?

If it is not the latter and you are not competitively benchmarking than PBO can work for you, but this is also dependent on your expectations.

For example, speaking for myself, as a tweaker who also likes to have performance, PBO in its default state, I am not a fan of.

I would much rather keep my manual overclock.

But having played with BCLK, EDC bug, my rig is better off using that.

This is a choice you would have to make.

Keep posting and you will be able to upload images soon.

Can you check in your HWINFO settings if in the "Safety" tab --> "CPU Clock Measurement" that the "Bus Clock-based" polling is check or not, I had to uncheck that as it was skewing the BCLK reporting on my motherboard (this probably has nothing to do with the reading you are getting...).

1.4v is alot of volts on a AIO! Look at peeps who have custom watercooled rigs and none of us are pushing 1.4v with AVX2 workloads at least not for sustained periods of time and even then, failures are prominent.

1.19v running Prime95 Small FFTs is on par with what one would expect with your equipment and give yourself some credit, you know way more than 90% of other people who turn up at such forums who state they know nothing about overclocking!

Your feedback is relevant, the informatio you are provided is relevant, its just that you do not know what to expect so you revert to "so I have concluded that I don’t know what I’m doing at all with this part" which is unfair on yourself (curb your expectations )

Im confident if you invested several hours in following some of the threads of people who have been down this path many times before you will be able to reach some good results!

You just need peeps to point out what you should be "expecting to see" so you know you are on the right track.....

Back to that, we need to nail down why your PBO voltage reading are not consistent....

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post #19 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-27-2020, 12:35 AM
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I am not familiar with ASRock BIOS for x570, but can you take PBO off "Auto" (I am guessing thats whats it set at) and choose some type of value that is not "Auto" or simply "Enabled".

There must be something that is a fixed PBO preset so we can rule out the "Auto/Enabled" PBO skewing the results your are seeing ........

Hopefully peeps who are familiar with ASRock mobo can point you in the right direction..

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post #20 of 59 (permalink) Old 06-27-2020, 01:07 AM
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enabled PBO will shift the voltage curve and provide more current
But that hopefully is known information by now
Would trust only what FIT reports me per sillicon, as every sillicon is unique when it comes to rated allcore voltage
peak remains 1.48v on zen2
Allcore voltage depends too much on the used workload
It's good practice that EDC is limiting PBO on such high stress workloads

Fixing constant voltage was never a good practice to begin with , that will degrade the cpus by time by workload
As every ryzen 3rd gen remains unique to it's sillicon capabilities
The FIT module inside knows and can track than near 5-10ms pooling rate
As long as AVG voltage under X test is lower or equal to the defaulting on stock "allowed" voltage , it's safe
If it's higher, it might not be safe anymore

if you use PBO, keep that in mind
You will shift the boosting tables voltage curve
so you have to adjust either with an offset, which limits maximum boost
or with PPT, TDC, EDC values ~ like it was common sense on a 2700X
keeping them open is not a good idea, only PPT can stay "open" with headroom ,
they have to throttle down to protect the cpu when you use PBO as on some usecases the FITness module might not protect it

AutoOC feature extends PBO
PBO by default only shifts the voltage curve while staying on the artificial boosting limits of the CPU
on a 3600 they are not that great, every 3600 pulls too much but then is limited at 4.2
AutoOC or OC multiplier does increase that range (visible in ryzen master)
but so also does modify the boosting curve
IF you use that, you have to adapt and limit TDC,EDC,PPT like AMD does default onto by default
Using PBO does remove these limits and nearly always messes things up ~ if you won't adapt them

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