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post #11781 of 11848 (permalink) Old 06-30-2020, 12:43 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by minal View Post
Nice. Overtemp at 80C is ridiculous. I hope with this change your system still shuts down at ~100C or so for safety. Ignoring monitoring seems more like a workaround than an actual solution.
Yes, I agree it is a workaround. But kinda strange how ASUS labelled the setting and where they put it in the BIOS sections. There still is the Thermal limit setting in the Overclocking section where you can set a thermal limit. I tried that and it had no effect. Must be specific to the boost limits or something.

I would have thought it should be labeled as it was in the older AMD generations of just Thermal Limit or Safety Shutdown limit. In the older boards, the manual for the Monitor Menus says:

"Select Ignore if you do not wish to display the detected temperatures"

I have always interpreted that as what it says verbatim, it just affects whether the temperatures are displayed. I always thought that if you set to Ignore then you won't have any detected temperatures.

It works that way for ignoring a fan output. The fan output of an ignored fan header is always 0 rpm or blank. But OTOH if you don't have a fan connected to the cpu fan header, the undetected sense of any fan rpm is actionable to protect the cpu cooling. You have to set the cpu fan header in the Monitor section to ignore if for example you are using liquid cooling and externally controlling fans or you will get the F1 cpu fan not detected error in the BIOS startup.

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post #11782 of 11848 (permalink) Old 06-30-2020, 02:34 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by oreonutz View Post
To answer a few of your Questions. I am not familiar with Camtasia. But, if it is like most Video Programs when it comes to rendering, a Higher Clock Speed on the same exact processor almost always means a shorter Render Time. Sometimes its minuscule depending on the Clock Speed increase, but it should never be longer if all other variables are accounted for (Background Processes, Ram Speed, etc...) So It definitely should not be happening that your All Core 4150Mhz OC is faster then your 4375Mhz, 4375Mhz, 4250Mhz, 4250Mhz CCX OC. All 4 of your CCX are above 4150Mhz, so you should be seeing at least a 5% or more increase. I would double check that you don't have some other task going on in the background while you are rendering that wasn't happening when you were doing your rendering on the Old OC. I would also make sure that when testing, you are rendering the same exact project before, with the same exact edits, because depending on the plugins, effects, and transitions that you have in your project, you could have wildly different render times. (For example if its the same project you are rendering, but the first had only a few plugins, while the 2nd you might have added a bunch more, that would definitely effect render times, so it wouldn't be a good "Benchmark" because you are rendering 2 different projects at this point). Also things like Windows Updates, and services like Google Drive or One Drive syncing with the cloud, could all effect your performance if they happen to have been running when you were doing your render, so just do your best to control all variables to make sure that its an apples to apples test between the 2.

If after controlling all variables you are still seeing a render time increase between Overclocks, then its likely that your second OC is not stable. It may be stable enough to finish the render without crashing, but stability isn't just whether or not a CPU Crashes while doing a task, its also that it can perform this task without errors occurring in the CPU, and you may be experiencing errors that are causing the program to recalculate certain tasks. If this happens, more Rendering programs have a log that will list out errors, so if Camtasia has such a log you may be able to check it to see if errors popped up in your recent render that did not pop up in your older render, and then you dig deeper into the error details to find out if it is indeed OC Related.

And last, your Ram could also have a huge effect. So if you were rendering with a higher Ram Speed or Tighter Timings before, and then either you lowered that Ram Speed, or Lowered the Timings with the New OC, that absolutely will have an effect on the Render Times. I know that @nick name was saying that there is some kind of Ram Auto Timing Bug with this newest BIOS Update. If it turns out that this bug he is talking about has to do with the Motherboard setting higher Timings For the same XMP/DOCP Profiles then it was setting in the Old Bios, then that too could also account for your performance loss, even if you were setting the same DOCP Profile. This is because that XMP/DOCP Profile only includes Ram Timings for the Primary Timings, and then One or 2 Secondary Timings. All Other Secondary and Tertiary timings are up to the Motherboard to fill in, and if it is setting much higher Timings then it was before, that could account for a decrease in performance, and depending on how dependent a task is on memory, it could be a pretty substantial decrease in performance. Rendering can be a pretty Ram dependent task, so its also possible this is what you are seeing.

If this does turn out to be the issue, you can easily account for this by downgrading back to the old BIOS, putting in the Same DOCP Profile, booting to Windows, and then using the Timing Checker Tool to Write down all of Your Timings that the Ram is at. Then upgrade the Bios again, and manually dial in all of those timings yourself in the new bios instead of selecting DOCP, you manually select the Ram Speed, Manually input the DRAM Voltage, and then go into the Timing Section of the Bios and One By One enter in each Timing. Then You will have the same exact Ram Performance that you had before, and if this was indeed the reason for the performance drop, it will now be fixed, and now you can see the true performance increase from the Per CCX OC.

Anyways, I hope that helps.

To address your other question, that CCX OC that you set looks great! You can definitely tune it further, but if its stable and it gives you a performance Increase over your old OC that you are happy with, and its not burning up your processor, then that is really all that matters! Enjoy!
Hi, and thank you very much for your extensive and clear explanation. I’ve been checking all the variables and It was definitely the RAM. I didn’t really know that it was so important when rendering, I thought rendering performance was just a matter of CPU, but thanks to your nice post I’ve realized that RAM really matters. In these last days, I had set some lower RAM frequency (3600 DOCP) and my previous tests were done with faster settings (3733 and tighter timings), so that was the reason for the longer rendering times. I’ve set all like it was before, and I have a bit shorter rendering times than with the previous 4150 mhz OC.

Yes I am quite a bit happy with this OC, it is a step forward in performance and efficiency thanks to the new per CCX OC feature! Little by little I refine it more. I have found that by raising the SOC a little I get the same performance with less voltage for the cpu. To be continued....
Thanks once more.
Cheers.

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post #11783 of 11848 (permalink) Old 06-30-2020, 07:36 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by smokin_mitch View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by nick name View Post
Darn, that means that the RAM timing bug is still there.

I can download the BIOS by changing the link, but I can't see it available on their page. Also, it's not Friday. They usually release on a Friday.

https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/m...-ASUS-3103.zip

Edit:
Actually I can see it if I select "Other" for OS.

Edit 2:
RAM Auto timings bug is still present.
Quote: Originally Posted by darkage View Post
1.05 and 1.8 voltages are still high if set to auto just like the beta, if it was not fully tested before, was it tested before release or is this the beta bios ?
This makes me not even want to try this bios I'm still on bios 2801 as it doesn't have the fabric clock sleep/wake bug like all the newer bios versions which I'm guessing is still present in bios 3103, this may be my last ASUS mobo as their bios updates are getting bad with all these bugs
I do not have the fabric clock bug on the 3101 bios. Sleeps @ 1868 and stays 1:1 after waking up.

3101 effectively makes the C7H the best Ryzen 3000 PBO board on the market.

Why?

Force OC mode disable + PCIE 3 being less finicky with bclk + bclk at 104.

C8H has all the same ability except I've read a lot about PCIE 4.0 not tolerating raised bclk well.

549 R20, 221 R15 single cores 566.8/193/576 cpu-z single scores totally stable. No EDC bug, PBO enabled but with stock values of 95-140-142, scalar 8, auto OC 200, LLC 2, auto voltage.

This configuration allows the core to boost beyond the 4650 limit because it disables the multiplier adaptation typically applied using bclk OC when force of mode disabled is set to enabled.

It's visible immediately in the "base speed" which for me shows as 3933 instead of 3800 and boost speeds are peaking at 4758 with sustained multipliers bouncing between 45.25 and 45.75 @ 104bclk, so...4706 to 4758.

Other boards and the C7E with force OC mode disabled set to disabled, will adjust the multiplier down to 37, or whatever gets it closest to 3800 base speed.

I would not believe this worked except the scores clearly reflect the speeds beating even 3950x single scores indicating it is, indeed holding boosts beyond advertised max.

When exceeding 104 bclk, the CPU gives all the tell tale signs of too little voltage for a given speed aka needs more voltage because it's boosting over where my chip is stable. R20 crashes with the warning msg box, and other benchmark crash in the same way the do when they're "just" under the required voltage to be stable.

I suspect the 4750 @ 1.5v is essentially "the wall" for Zen 2 cores, reflected in the 3800xt and 3900xt revised speeds and the 3950x. I don't believe AMD there's a "improved process" more like "excess of 3950x CCDs to clear out before Zen 3 launch".

See CPU-Z link in sig for example of why bclk+force oc mode disabled+pbo = win

Last edited by tcclaviger; 06-30-2020 at 09:44 PM.
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post #11784 of 11848 (permalink) Old 07-01-2020, 05:02 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by tcclaviger View Post
-snip-

I suspect the 4750 @ 1.5v is essentially "the wall" for Zen 2 cores, reflected in the 3800xt and 3900xt revised speeds and the 3950x. I don't believe AMD there's a "improved process" more like "excess of 3950x CCDs to clear out before Zen 3 launch".

See CPU-Z link in sig for example of why bclk+force oc mode disabled+pbo = win
Yeah, BCLK with EDC bug only gets wonky on single-core loads at their peak speeds. I would have to add a little voltage to make certain that I don't crash during the lightest, bursty loads. (Phrasing)

If you look at one of the recent 3900XT Geekbench 5 runs the speed is above 4.7GHz, but I have no idea how they have the CPU setup as Geekbench reports the max speed at 4.36GHz on the score page. When you add .gb5 to the URL to view the details is where you see the 4.7GHz+ speeds.

https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/2664749.gb5

I don't know why you wouldn't believe that the process improved as it matured, but there is probably some more to it than that. Clearing out their better surplus silicon with a re-launch is a good idea especially if they are better performing parts. I'm eager to see if both CCDs are of the same better quality or if they continued with the one better than the other.

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post #11785 of 11848 (permalink) Old 07-01-2020, 05:15 AM
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Two good CCD will most likely continue to be a 3950X exclusive, a nice price premium for that.

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post #11786 of 11848 (permalink) Old 07-01-2020, 11:09 AM
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thanks for the .gb5 link addition to provide details of a given run. .gb4 seems to also work on the v4 results, very much appreciated!

Makes spotting all core OC and XOC results much easier.

I hope we get two good CCDs but, why would they? Every good second CCD could have been a 3600xt and is money lost for AMD.

Last edited by tcclaviger; 07-01-2020 at 11:23 AM.
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post #11787 of 11848 (permalink) Old 07-01-2020, 11:43 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Logue View Post
So, it might be a silly question I have, but, why can I complete Blender in loop for a long time with 4.35GHz @ 1.35v all core on my 3800X (by Per CCX OC, but all at 43.50 and 1.35VID - BIOS setting, real voltages droop a little), but with PBO enabled (142,95,140, 2x scalar), the frequencies stay only at 4.15GHz but basically at the same voltage (1.3V~1.33V VID, 1.35V SVI TFN2)???
I use a Noctua NH-D15 (single fan in the middle, but it's still a better cooler than stock) and it still seems that it doesn't provide me with that much extra head room for PBO or Auto OC (PBO disabled). With the EDC bug, I can reach 4.25~4.35 in Blender, but gaming benchmarks seem to say it's a decrease in performance (albeit by a small margin). Running LLC3 and max VRM settings all the way, voltage at Auto (no offset). BIOS 3103 (latest).
Any ideas? Is this normal behavior?
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post #11788 of 11848 (permalink) Old 07-01-2020, 12:06 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by tcclaviger View Post
thanks for the .gb5 link addition to provide details of a given run. .gb4 seems to also work on the v4 results, very much appreciated!

Makes spotting all core OC and XOC results much easier.

I hope we get two good CCDs but, why would they? Every good second CCD could have been a 3600xt and is money lost for AMD.
No problem for the Geekbench trick. I can't remember who taught it to me.

And two good CCDs is just a hope that maybe the process has matured enough that they aren't really making any "bad" ones anymore. Not that I guess it really matters to me as I don't plan to buy anything until Ryzen 4000 comes out. Or maybe even 4000XT.

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post #11789 of 11848 (permalink) Old 07-01-2020, 12:18 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by nick name View Post
No problem for the Geekbench trick. I can't remember who taught it to me.

And two good CCDs is just a hope that maybe the process has matured enough that they aren't really making any "bad" ones anymore. Not that I guess it really matters to me as I don't plan to buy anything until Ryzen 4000 comes out. Or maybe even 4000XT.
Will definetely be a Zen 3, looking forward having IF above 2000MHz Why would they spec RAM speeds above 5GHz on the new mobos if something wasn't coming?

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post #11790 of 11848 (permalink) Old 07-01-2020, 01:24 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by xeizo View Post
Will definetely be a Zen 3, looking forward having IF above 2000MHz Why would they spec RAM speeds above 5GHz on the new mobos if something wasn't coming?
That recent APU leak with the incredible RAM speed, timings, and latency looked fun. It might be fun buying a future APU just for the better latency and RAM overclocking.

Edit:
Those APUs may also be why new mobos support such fast RAM.

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Last edited by nick name; 07-01-2020 at 01:32 PM.
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