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post #1 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-08-2019, 04:36 PM - Thread Starter
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x470 or x570?

My plan is to get the highest clock SKU of Ryzen 3000 when it's released. I would much rather have 12 cores at 5GHz, than 16 at 4.5GHz. I will be overclocking whichever I end up with on my 480mm custom loop and would LIKE to shoot for 5GHz on all cores (if at all possible, I've heard it's possible, but VERY difficult)

I will be pairing this with dual 2080 Ti's (PCIe Gen 3 cards, so PCIe 4 isn't a huge selling point for me) as well as the highest speed O/Cable memory I can find (money isn't an issue, and any suggestions on a quality high clocking pair of sticks are welcome)

My question is this:
If PCIe 4 is useless to me, does the speed difference in x570 memory capabilities justify the rumored price increase? What kind of overclocked DDR4 speeds are we seeing with x470 vs. what is rumored with x570?

I've had my eyes on a Crosshair VIII Formula or an ASRock Aqua, but would also be okay with a top tier x470 board if the previously mentioned features are a non-factor. I REALLY would like to hit 5GHz on my memory overclock (I've heard it's possible on x570)

Also, as far as VRMs go, are the top tier x470 boards sufficient to push a 12 or 16 core Ryzen 3000 to 5GHz? I'm well aware of the silicon lottery, and the rumored difficulty in getting Ryzen 3000 to 5GHz on all cores, but hypothetically, if I could get it there on my loop, can x470 VRMs handle it?

Thanks in advance!


EDIT: Any boards with waterblocks or monoblocks available, or pre-installed are a HUGE plus for me.

Last edited by KingUniverse; 06-08-2019 at 04:40 PM.
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post #2 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-08-2019, 04:54 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by KingUniverse View Post
My plan is to get the highest clock SKU of Ryzen 3000 when it's released. I would much rather have 12 cores at 5GHz, than 16 at 4.5GHz. I will be overclocking whichever I end up with on my 480mm custom loop and would LIKE to shoot for 5GHz on all cores (if at all possible, I've heard it's possible, but VERY difficult)

I will be pairing this with dual 2080 Ti's (PCIe Gen 3 cards, so PCIe 4 isn't a huge selling point for me) as well as the highest speed O/Cable memory I can find (money isn't an issue, and any suggestions on a quality high clocking pair of sticks are welcome)

My question is this:
If PCIe 4 is useless to me, does the speed difference in x570 memory capabilities justify the rumored price increase? What kind of overclocked DDR4 speeds are we seeing with x470 vs. what is rumored with x570?

I've had my eyes on a Crosshair VIII Formula or an ASRock Aqua, but would also be okay with a top tier x470 board if the previously mentioned features are a non-factor. I REALLY would like to hit 5GHz on my memory overclock (I've heard it's possible on x570)

Also, as far as VRMs go, are the top tier x470 boards sufficient to push a 12 or 16 core Ryzen 3000 to 5GHz? I'm well aware of the silicon lottery, and the rumored difficulty in getting Ryzen 3000 to 5GHz on all cores, but hypothetically, if I could get it there on my loop, can x470 VRMs handle it?

Thanks in advance!


EDIT: Any boards with waterblocks or monoblocks available, or pre-installed are a HUGE plus for me.
Honestly, I am most excited for the RAM overclocking potential of X570. Everything folks are saying about 4000MHz RAM speeds being possible and the increased attention paid to the PCB and traces all seem to point to much higher RAM speeds than X470 can achieve.

AMD Ryzen 2700X  |  Fractal Design S36 360 AIO w/6 Corsair SP120L fans  |  Asus Crosshair VII WiFi X470  | G.SKILL TridentZ 3636MHz @ 14-15-14-28 2x8GB  | EVGA 1070 Ti SC GAMING ACX 3.0 Black  |  Samsung 970 EVO M.2 NVMe 500GB - Boot Drive  |  Samsung 850 EVO SSD 1TB - Game Drive  |  Seagate 1TB HDD - Media Drive  |  EVGA 650 G3  | Thermaltake Core P3 Case |
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post #3 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 06:25 PM
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...can x470 VRMs handle it?

No way, they only can handle R9 stock without deep overclocking. It’s not only wattage but frequencies and phases insufficiencies of X470 VRMs. They are too simple for R9 overclocking.
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post #4 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 06:40 PM
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Crosshair VII Hero and X470 Gaming 7 should be able to handle the 12 core but I'm not so sure on 16 cores with Gaming 7. Also Gaming 7 as far as I know is T-topology so I wouldn't expect to exceed ~ 3600MHz memory unless there's major improvements to the Ryzen 3000 series memory controller.

Probably can handle up to around 200A / 250W on Gaming 7 (90% efficient up to around 20-25A , with 10x 40A powerstages and finned heatsink) and 400A (around 40A each with 10x 60A powerstages) on Crosshair VII Hero if you can cool it. If you're on water with a 480mm radiator then you can handle over 350W so I'd look into the Crosshair VII Hero but try to add cooling on the powerstages.

Those are the only two boards I'd be looking at with 12 cores in mind besides the Asrock X470 Taichi which might be close due to 12x 40A TI NexFET powerblocks but doesn't have the heatsink of Gaming 7 or powerstages of Crosshair VII Hero.

Each Ryzen core already pulls around 20-22W each under boost, so a 12 core is probably going to be around 250W.


As far as monoblocks:
Crosshair VII Hero https://www.performance-pcs.com/bits...-vii-hero.html , https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-fb-asus...noblock-nickel
X470 Gaming 7 https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-fb-ga-x...-rgb-monoblock , https://shop.bitspower.com/index.php...roduct_id=6845
Taichi https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-fb-asro...noblock-nickel , https://www.performance-pcs.com/bits...70-taichi.html


See:
https://www.kitguru.net/components/l...proper-vrms/5/ , https://www.kitguru.net/components/l...i-fi-review/4/
Crosshair VII Hero VRM temp with Ryzen 7 2700X @ 4.25GHz = 46°C (Power draw at wall in Blender = 225W)
X470 Gaming 7 VRM temp with Ryzen 7 2700X @ 4.25GHz = 54°C (Power draw at wall in Blender = 238W)
Taichi VRM temp with Ryzen 7 2700X @ 4.25GHz = 75°C (Power draw at wall in Blender = 237W)

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Last edited by AlphaC; 06-09-2019 at 06:55 PM.
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post #5 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by AlphaC View Post
Crosshair VII Hero and X470 Gaming 7 should be able to handle the 12 core but I'm not so sure on 16 cores with Gaming 7. Also Gaming 7 as far as I know is T-topology so I wouldn't expect to exceed ~ 3600MHz memory unless there's major improvements to the Ryzen 3000 series memory controller.

Probably can handle up to around 200A / 250W on Gaming 7 (90% efficient up to around 20-25A , with 10x 40A powerstages and finned heatsink) and 400A (around 40A each with 10x 60A powerstages) on Crosshair VII Hero if you can cool it. If you're on water with a 480mm radiator then you can handle over 350W so I'd look into the Crosshair VII Hero but try to add cooling on the powerstages.

Those are the only two boards I'd be looking at with 12 cores in mind besides the Asrock X470 Taichi which might be close due to 12x 40A TI NexFET powerblocks but doesn't have the heatsink of Gaming 7 or powerstages of Crosshair VII Hero.

Each Ryzen core already pulls around 20-22W each under boost, so a 12 core is probably going to be around 250W.


As far as monoblocks:
Crosshair VII Hero https://www.performance-pcs.com/bits...-vii-hero.html , https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-fb-asus...noblock-nickel
X470 Gaming 7 https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-fb-ga-x...-rgb-monoblock , https://shop.bitspower.com/index.php...roduct_id=6845
Taichi https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-fb-asro...noblock-nickel , https://www.performance-pcs.com/bits...70-taichi.html


See:
https://www.kitguru.net/components/l...proper-vrms/5/ , https://www.kitguru.net/components/l...i-fi-review/4/
Crosshair VII Hero VRM temp with Ryzen 7 2700X @ 4.25GHz = 46°C (Power draw at wall in Blender = 225W)
X470 Gaming 7 VRM temp with Ryzen 7 2700X @ 4.25GHz = 54°C (Power draw at wall in Blender = 238W)
Taichi VRM temp with Ryzen 7 2700X @ 4.25GHz = 75°C (Power draw at wall in Blender = 237W)


I've decided I'm going with the 3950x as my CPU. I'm also pretty convinced that x570 memory capabilities are decently upgraded from x470 (I've heard rumors of 5GHz) and 4666 not being out of the ordinary.

The two boards I have my eyes on are the

Crosshair VIII Formula

And the

ASRock x570 Aqua

Now I just need to find a high clocking pair of DDR4, but seeing as the 3950x isn't released until September, I have time to see what comes about in July.
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post #6 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 03:33 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by AlphaC View Post
Crosshair VII Hero and X470 Gaming 7 should be able to handle the 12 core but I'm not so sure on 16 cores with Gaming 7. Also Gaming 7 as far as I know is T-topology so I wouldn't expect to exceed ~ 3600MHz memory unless there's major improvements to the Ryzen 3000 series memory controller.

Probably can handle up to around 200A / 250W on Gaming 7 (90% efficient up to around 20-25A , with 10x 40A powerstages and finned heatsink) and 400A (around 40A each with 10x 60A powerstages) on Crosshair VII Hero if you can cool it. If you're on water with a 480mm radiator then you can handle over 350W so I'd look into the Crosshair VII Hero but try to add cooling on the powerstages.

Those are the only two boards I'd be looking at with 12 cores in mind besides the Asrock X470 Taichi which might be close due to 12x 40A TI NexFET powerblocks but doesn't have the heatsink of Gaming 7 or powerstages of Crosshair VII Hero.

Each Ryzen core already pulls around 20-22W each under boost, so a 12 core is probably going to be around 250W.


As far as monoblocks:
Crosshair VII Hero https://www.performance-pcs.com/bits...-vii-hero.html , https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-fb-asus...noblock-nickel
X470 Gaming 7 https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-fb-ga-x...-rgb-monoblock , https://shop.bitspower.com/index.php...roduct_id=6845
Taichi https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-fb-asro...noblock-nickel , https://www.performance-pcs.com/bits...70-taichi.html


See:
https://www.kitguru.net/components/l...proper-vrms/5/ , https://www.kitguru.net/components/l...i-fi-review/4/
Crosshair VII Hero VRM temp with Ryzen 7 2700X @ 4.25GHz = 46°C (Power draw at wall in Blender = 225W)
X470 Gaming 7 VRM temp with Ryzen 7 2700X @ 4.25GHz = 54°C (Power draw at wall in Blender = 238W)
Taichi VRM temp with Ryzen 7 2700X @ 4.25GHz = 75°C (Power draw at wall in Blender = 237W)
This is an answer for all the thread not just for the comment i quoted.

I think handling it's miss used here. W7f do you guys think those new CPUs gonna eat? 1000w? It's 7nm (even if it's really not). They gonna be voltage limited way before you find the limits of the boards. Stop threating them like zen and zen+.

Achieving max posible OC? Sure!, as alphaC explained up, you need to hit the peak efficiency, but "handling". I can see the new 12 core handled by a freaking. B450m mortar.

I understand that you might be used to burn top dollar for extra 50-100mhz, or to brings temps down to levels that don't really bring any benefit, but come on! For some1 that's completely new into this, it's gonna look like it's impossible to do anything for less than burning money stupidly.

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post #7 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 04:16 PM
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If running stock clocks and not expecting to achieve max boost from PBO / XFR2 then a B450 Tomahawk / B450 Pro Carbon (which are 4 layer PCBs) is the minimum I would be looking at. The original post in this thread is asking about 12 or 16 core Ryzen 3000 to 5GHz (hypothetical) with a custom loop (i.e. low airflow from a fan in typical configurations).

As you know power goes up with the square of voltage and linearly with clockspeed. A chip that consumes ~ 105W at 3.6GHz base clock and 1.2V or so is going to consume (5GHz/3.6GHz) * (1.4/1.2)^2 =~ 1.9 x power which is ~200W. This is independent of process typically. That's why Ryzen has the boost algorithm based on workloads. If someone is using Blender , for example, that uses AVX instructions which stress the CPU more. In Ryzen 3rd gen the AVX2 support is improved such that it is wider : it will likely get hotter but get more work done with half the clockspeed. The use case for 12-16 cores is typically rendering or parallel workloads that can actually utilize the cores, otherwise it's normally 6 or 8 cores mentioned.

Ryzen algorithms currently use PPT (package power tracking), TDC (thermal design current) , EDC (Electrical Design Current), and PTC (platform thermal control) as limiters. There's no indication of this changing.
PPT = package power of the CPU , default =~ 142W for X470
TDC = power supply of motherboard limits it , default = 95A
EDC = electrical constraint of motherboard , default = 140A
PTC = thermal solution of the CPU limits it (i.e. the CPU cooler) --- TJMAX= 85°C
https://www.amd.com/system/files/doc...ence-guide.pdf

If you look at hardwareunbox's testing the Tomahawk is fine at ~ 160W with a fan on it , otherwise if you intend to run it for over 5K hours (~ 4 years at 4 hours/day or ~2 years at 8 hours/day) it's probably not going to last since it would hit ~90°C even with R7 2700X at stock.

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post #8 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 04:30 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by AlphaC View Post
If running stock clocks and not expecting to achieve max boost from PBO / XFR2 then a B450 Tomahawk / B450 Pro Carbon (which are 4 layer PCBs) is the minimum I would be looking at. The original post in this thread is asking about 12 or 16 core Ryzen 3000 to 5GHz (hypothetical) with a custom loop (i.e. low airflow from a fan in typical configurations).

As you know power goes up with the square of voltage and linearly with clockspeed. A chip that consumes ~ 105W at 3.6GHz base clock and 1.2V or so is going to consume (5GHz/3.6GHz) * (1.4/1.2)^2 =~ 1.9 x power which is ~200W. This is independent of process typically. That's why Ryzen has the boost algorithm based on workloads. If someone is using Blender , for example, that uses AVX instructions which stress the CPU more. In Ryzen 3rd gen the AVX2 support is improved such that it is wider : it will likely get hotter but get more work done with half the clockspeed. The use case for 12-16 cores is typically rendering or parallel workloads that can actually utilize the cores, otherwise it's normally 6 or 8 cores mentioned.

Ryzen algorithms currently use PPT (package power tracking), TDC (thermal design current) , EDC (Electrical Design Current), and PTC (platform thermal control) as limiters. There's no indication of this changing.
PPT = package power of the CPU , default =~ 142W for X470
TDC = power supply of motherboard limits it , default = 95A
EDC = electrical constraint of motherboard , default = 140A
PTC = thermal solution of the CPU limits it (i.e. the CPU cooler) --- TJMAX= 85°C
https://www.amd.com/system/files/doc...ence-guide.pdf

If you look at hardwareunbox's testing the Tomahawk is fine at ~ 160W with a fan on it , otherwise if you intend to run it for over 5K hours (~ 4 years at 4 hours/day or ~2 years at 8 hours/day) it's probably not going to last since it would hit ~90°C even with R7 2700X at stock.
You're not wrong, and in a perfect world, it should be just like you say, but i bet my ass that at least 70% of the 12 core sales, are not gonna be used for rendering workloads, but bought as a future proofing option a big portion of the 16 cores aswell. And when i said the mortar can handle it, i was referring to that, not rendering workloads, and much less those that hit heavily avx.

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post #9 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 07:19 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by AlphaC View Post
If running stock clocks and not expecting to achieve max boost from PBO / XFR2 then a B450 Tomahawk / B450 Pro Carbon (which are 4 layer PCBs) is the minimum I would be looking at. The original post in this thread is asking about 12 or 16 core Ryzen 3000 to 5GHz (hypothetical) with a custom loop (i.e. low airflow from a fan in typical configurations).

As you know power goes up with the square of voltage and linearly with clockspeed. A chip that consumes ~ 105W at 3.6GHz base clock and 1.2V or so is going to consume (5GHz/3.6GHz) * (1.4/1.2)^2 =~ 1.9 x power which is ~200W. This is independent of process typically. That's why Ryzen has the boost algorithm based on workloads. If someone is using Blender , for example, that uses AVX instructions which stress the CPU more. In Ryzen 3rd gen the AVX2 support is improved such that it is wider : it will likely get hotter but get more work done with half the clockspeed. The use case for 12-16 cores is typically rendering or parallel workloads that can actually utilize the cores, otherwise it's normally 6 or 8 cores mentioned.

Ryzen algorithms currently use PPT (package power tracking), TDC (thermal design current) , EDC (Electrical Design Current), and PTC (platform thermal control) as limiters. There's no indication of this changing.
PPT = package power of the CPU , default =~ 142W for X470
TDC = power supply of motherboard limits it , default = 95A
EDC = electrical constraint of motherboard , default = 140A
PTC = thermal solution of the CPU limits it (i.e. the CPU cooler) --- TJMAX= 85°C
https://www.amd.com/system/files/doc...ence-guide.pdf

If you look at hardwareunbox's testing the Tomahawk is fine at ~ 160W with a fan on it , otherwise if you intend to run it for over 5K hours (~ 4 years at 4 hours/day or ~2 years at 8 hours/day) it's probably not going to last since it would hit ~90°C even with R7 2700X at stock.
Interestingly I've had two Asus Crosshair VII hero boards, one stripped to the bone, no heatsinks except for chipset. This board was basically for LN2 runs, during which time I've had my Ryzen 7 2700X at 5.6ghz and it was basically pulling around maybe just over 300Watt when monitoring with Hwinfo64. Now when I run this motherboard without the heat spreaders on the VRM, the VRM is actually not even heating up at all. And I mean with the cpu for everyday use at 4.24ghz 1.33vcore. Okay, I'll be honest the most stressing my cpu endure is running benchmarks, so no real stress testing as I personally do not see the point in that.

The VRM in the Asus Crosshair VII Hero is totally overkill taken that you can effectively get 600 amps of power.

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Motherboard
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GPU
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RAM
G.Skill f4-3200c14d-16gtzr tridentz rgb
Hard Drive
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Corsair HX1200i
Cooling
CoolerMaster MLW-D24M-A20PC-R1 MasterLiquid ML240L 240mm RGB Liquid CPU Cooler
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post #10 of 27 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 08:25 PM
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I haven't messed with AMD but I seriously miss having an asrock mobo compared to asus and EVGA. especially if you are into mem OCing, They train so much easier than asus and I am pretty sure they have a way better RMA department. they always email me within 24 hours usually with an RMA number n turn around was 5 days and someone called me to talk to me, they didnt find anything wrong and they are one state over but nonethe less I am impressed.

havent had time to test the board though. it was older gen and I just got it rmad cuz it was the last possible month n I had some issues after an LN2 sesh

Ocing is just really easy on every Asrock board I have had. they have a larger window somehow. way better than gigabyte. and definitely more forgiving than asus

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