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VRM on the new AM4 motherboards

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post #3341 of 3397 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 08:23 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Lexi is Dumb View Post
About that. Looks like the X570 Master is going to be $350 USD. If Asus price the CH8 Hero above that its DOA.
https://www.techpowerup.com/256443/a...a-horror-story

Looks like Asus will be pricing the CH8 above the Gigabyte X570 Master at $359.99 and $379.99 vs $350 USD....
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post #3342 of 3397 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 10:28 AM
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Update on Taichi VRM: it's 12 powerstages for the VCORE definitely.
https://www.asrock.com/mb/AMD/X570%20Taichi/#Overview


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Name:	taichi 12+2.PNG
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post #3343 of 3397 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 03:05 PM
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My first ASUS motherboard was the A7N8X, which died after 4 months, threw it away and got an ABIT instead. Second and last ASUS motherboard is the C6H. I'm not going to buy a motherboard from ASUS again. Paying more for less is not an option regardless of how many motherboards they give away for users at OCN to polish and market their motherboards.
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post #3344 of 3397 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 03:36 PM
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AlphaC: How would you rank the memory compatibility/overclocking ability of AM4 board brands in general? Something like Asus > Asrock > MSI ~= Gigabyte > Biostar
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post #3345 of 3397 (permalink) Old 06-12-2019, 10:16 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by larrydavid View Post
AlphaC: How would you rank the memory compatibility/overclocking ability of AM4 board brands in general? Something like Asus > Asrock > MSI ~= Gigabyte > Biostar
As far as I know AMD forced daisy chain for all X570

MSI is usually running daisy chain and Asus on X470. I don't expect any change there. MSI has been making all the memory records on Intel lately as well.

X470 Pro Carbon holds the X470 record right now at 2032MHz (4066MHz effective CL20) on water in terms of MHz: https://hwbot.org/submission/3973686...ram_2032.1_mhz

Crosshair VII Hero has had ~2GHz (4000MHz effective CL18) at 60°C (i.e. not LN2) https://hwbot.org/submission/3956314...sdram_1995_mhz

Asrock supposedly has T-topology on X470 Taichi per techpowerup guide https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/...g_Guide/4.html

However, on X370 they had some of the best memory overclocking since the Crosshair VI Hero was also T-topology and the TI NexFET powerblock for memory VRM is just outright better than what other vendors were using.

Generally Gigabyte has had the worst memory overclocks on their midrange due to the T-topology unless you run 4 DIMMs. People have gotten 3400-3600 regardless of this. I've seen someone over on hwbot get 1900MHz (3800MHz effective , C18) on their X470 G7 at 62°C CPU though (i.e. not LN2).

If you're buying in anticipation for Ryzen 3rd gen, AMD states that 3600C16 is the "sweet spot" for Ryzen 3rd gen and that over 3733MHz runs the Infinity Fabric at 2:1 ratio which is suboptimal for latency.



----

In other news it looks like the X570-P is as I expected , it looks to be 10x powerstages for VCORE which is weaker than the 12x used on ~$10-15 more expensive TUF Plus:
Click image for larger version

Name:	power-delivery.png
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60% (6 of 10) are on the main VRM heatsink whereas 7 of 12 (~58%) are for the TUF so it's relatively equal

As a comparison for the lower midrange: The X570 Steel Legend has all 8 on the main VRM heatsink , MSI Pro carbon has 6 of 10 on the main VRM heatsink as well (60%) but theirs is covered in plastic bits and is using Dual-N fets instead of powerstages, and Aorus Elite has 9 of 12 (75%) on the main VRM heatsink

B450 Pro Carbon had all 8 sets of mosfets on the main "extended" VRM heatsink , the new Gaming Plus / Edge boards have it split 6 on the main VRM heatsink and 2 on the SOC VRM heatsink.

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post #3346 of 3397 (permalink) Old 06-13-2019, 05:31 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by AlphaC View Post
If you're buying in anticipation for Ryzen 3rd gen, AMD states that 3600C16 is the "sweet spot" for Ryzen 3rd gen and that over 3733MHz runs the Infinity Fabric at 2:1 ratio which is suboptimal for latency.
G.SKILL FLARE X (F4-3200C14D-16GFX) (2X8GB) here. Will it be fine (ram health) to OC to 3600C16, below 1.5v, on a X470, with a Ryzen 3000? *Edit= And have it run 24/7?
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post #3347 of 3397 (permalink) Old 06-13-2019, 12:10 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Hale59 View Post
G.SKILL FLARE X (F4-3200C14D-16GFX) (2X8GB) here. Will it be fine (ram health) to OC to 3600C16, below 1.5v, on a X470, with a Ryzen 3000? *Edit= And have it run 24/7?
3200C14 is a higher bin than 3600C16 in terms of absolute latency and people have gotten 3600C16 / 3466C14 on <1.4V
The only higher XMP bin (at 1.35V) is probably 3600C15



refer to https://www.overclock.net/forum/1805...on-thread.html , https://www.overclock.net/forum/10-a...ty-thread.html

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post #3348 of 3397 (permalink) Old 06-13-2019, 01:45 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by AlphaC View Post
As far as I know AMD forced daisy chain for all X570

MSI is usually running daisy chain and Asus on X470. I don't expect any change there. MSI has been making all the memory records on Intel lately as well.

X470 Pro Carbon holds the X470 record right now at 2032MHz (4066MHz effective CL20) on water in terms of MHz: https://hwbot.org/submission/3973686...ram_2032.1_mhz

Crosshair VII Hero has had ~2GHz (4000MHz effective CL18) at 60°C (i.e. not LN2) https://hwbot.org/submission/3956314...sdram_1995_mhz

Asrock supposedly has T-topology on X470 Taichi per techpowerup guide https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/...g_Guide/4.html

However, on X370 they had some of the best memory overclocking since the Crosshair VI Hero was also T-topology and the TI NexFET powerblock for memory VRM is just outright better than what other vendors were using.

Generally Gigabyte has had the worst memory overclocks on their midrange due to the T-topology unless you run 4 DIMMs. People have gotten 3400-3600 regardless of this. I've seen someone over on hwbot get 1900MHz (3800MHz effective , C18) on their X470 G7 at 62°C CPU though (i.e. not LN2).

If you're buying in anticipation for Ryzen 3rd gen, AMD states that 3600C16 is the "sweet spot" for Ryzen 3rd gen and that over 3733MHz runs the Infinity Fabric at 2:1 ratio which is suboptimal for latency.



----

In other news it looks like the X570-P is as I expected , it looks to be 10x powerstages for VCORE which is weaker than the 12x used on ~$10-15 more expensive TUF Plus:
Attachment 274176
60% (6 of 10) are on the main VRM heatsink whereas 7 of 12 (~58%) are for the TUF so it's relatively equal

As a comparison for the lower midrange: The X570 Steel Legend has all 8 on the main VRM heatsink , MSI Pro carbon has 6 of 10 on the main VRM heatsink as well (60%) but theirs is covered in plastic bits and is using Dual-N fets instead of powerstages, and Aorus Elite has 9 of 12 (75%) on the main VRM heatsink

B450 Pro Carbon had all 8 sets of mosfets on the main "extended" VRM heatsink , the new Gaming Plus / Edge boards have it split 6 on the main VRM heatsink and 2 on the SOC VRM heatsink.
What about the b450 mortar, tomahawk a and pro carbon? Are they T-Topology or daisy chain? How would you rank them regarding RAM OC.

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post #3349 of 3397 (permalink) Old 06-14-2019, 01:11 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by AlphaC View Post
3200C14 is a higher bin than 3600C16 in terms of absolute latency and people have gotten 3600C16 / 3466C14 on <1.4V
The only higher XMP bin (at 1.35V) is probably 3600C15



refer to https://www.overclock.net/forum/1805...on-thread.html , https://www.overclock.net/forum/10-a...ty-thread.html
I'm starting the quest for DDR4 as I'm gonna go Zen2 in July, and since I hadn't been following the RAM situation with Ryzen I'm pretty out of the loop and got a bit blindsided by all this.
Of course now I find out b-dies are the best, but they're not producing them any more, all the ups and downs about the importance of getting the frecuency+timings right in Ryzen (although apparently will be less so in Zen2), etc... and in general don't know what to choose (or even if I should buy already if I see a nice set), or even the actual importance of getting a good set over a cheaper one (how much performance gain are we talking really with a good RAM over say a set and forget 3200 CL16?).

I quoted you since you seem to know about all this, but, for example, would a Trident Z 2x16GB 3200 CL14 for about 290€ be a good buy? Seems so, I think it's the cheapest 32GB set of, I'm guessing, b-dies I've seen.
Is it that much different for the common mortal over say a 2x16 Trident Z (RGB this time, not that I care) 3200 16-18-18 for 210€?
I mean, I'm willing to spend the extra given how much time they'll be with me (or even the extra resell value), I just don't know enough about the situation still
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post #3350 of 3397 (permalink) Old 06-14-2019, 09:59 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Molitro View Post
I'm starting the quest for DDR4 as I'm gonna go Zen2 in July, and since I hadn't been following the RAM situation with Ryzen I'm pretty out of the loop and got a bit blindsided by all this.
Of course now I find out b-dies are the best, but they're not producing them any more, all the ups and downs about the importance of getting the frecuency+timings right in Ryzen (although apparently will be less so in Zen2), etc... and in general don't know what to choose (or even if I should buy already if I see a nice set), or even the actual importance of getting a good set over a cheaper one (how much performance gain are we talking really with a good RAM over say a set and forget 3200 CL16?).

I quoted you since you seem to know about all this, but, for example, would a Trident Z 2x16GB 3200 CL14 for about 290€ be a good buy? Seems so, I think it's the cheapest 32GB set of, I'm guessing, b-dies I've seen.
Is it that much different for the common mortal over say a 2x16 Trident Z (RGB this time, not that I care) 3200 16-18-18 for 210€?
I mean, I'm willing to spend the extra given how much time they'll be with me (or even the extra resell value), I just don't know enough about the situation still
16GB sticks are probably dual rank B-die which isn't going to clock as easily. Usually when people talk about B-die it's 2x8GB 3600C15/3200C14/3600C16.

Ryzen 3rd gen might have fixed most of the problems with memory compatability since they moved most if not all boards to daisy chain and also since B-die is being discontinued they have incentive to optimize for Hynix (3600C19 cjr supposedly works decent on Ryzen) or Micron.

Quote: Originally Posted by Shenhua View Post
What about the b450 mortar, tomahawk a and pro carbon? Are they T-Topology or daisy chain? How would you rank them regarding RAM OC.
Pretty sure that the Pro Carbon can overclock memory decently at least to 3466 officially, but the Mortar is iffy. https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/supp...support-mem-14
https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/supp...support-mem-14 --- 3466 is still listed

Click image for larger version

Name:	b450 pro carbon memory layout.png
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Size:	4.46 MB
ID:	274486
Click image for larger version

Name:	b450m mortar memory layout.png
Views:	18
Size:	2.30 MB
ID:	274488

I think it's T-topology on those boards since there's bends in the memory traces and on the back it appears all 4 slots are direct to the CPU. I wouldn't count on the Mortar for memory overclocking as it is also a 4 DIMM board on mATX so there has to be either a thicker PCB or clever routing of signals, which is unlikely since it's a budget board.

(https://www.hd-tecnologia.com/review...pro-carbon-ac/ , https://bit-tech.net/reviews/tech/mo...rtar-review/1/)


Some more searching:

https://www.computerbase.de/forum/th...unity.1829356/
Quote:
As a good starting point for RAM-OC, I see the following boards.

Spoiler!


The MSI B450 GPC & Tomahawk are the so-called budget boards and officially support 3466 OC.
How well these boards really can cut off due to the lack of experience yet to be answered.


Of course, the ASUS ROG Crosshair VII Hero is a great board, but I find it very expensive for the mainstream platform.

EDIT 19.10.2018: The Asus ROG Strix B450 F Gaming has been removed from the list due to modest VRM cooling. In pure gaming or moderate OC, the board is OK so far, but for the current price, there is too little delivered.


https://www.hardwareluxx.de/communit...n-1216557.html
from QVL
Quote:
3600+
ASUS ROG Strix X470-I Gaming
ASUS ROG Strix B450-I Gaming
ASUS ROG Crosshair VII Hero
ASUS ROG Crosshair VII Hero WIFI

MSI X470 Gaming M7 AC



3533/3600
ASRock Fatal1ty X370 Gaming-ITX/ac (1)
ASRock X370 Taichi (1)
ASRock X470 Taichi (1)
ASRock X470 Taichi Ultimate

ASUS Prime X470-Pro
ASUS ROG Strix X370-I Gaming
ASUS ROG Strix X370-F Gaming (1)
ASUS ROG Strix X470-F Gaming
ASUS ROG Strix B350-I Gaming
ASUS ROG Strix B450-E Gaming

ASUS ROG Crosshair VI Hero
ASUS ROG Crosshair VI Hero WIFI
ASUS ROG Crosshair VI Hero Extreme

Gigabyte B450 I Aorus Pro WIFI
Gigabyte Aorus GA-AX370-Gaming K7
Gigybyte X470 Aorus Gaming 7 WIFI

MSI B450M Mortar (1)
MSI B450M Mortar Titanium
MSI B450 Tomahawk (1)
MSI X470 Gaming Pro Carbon (1)
(I removed the TUF B450 and Asrock B450 which have weaker VRM than Tomahawk)



On page 7, Taichi is listed as T-topology but able to push 3533MHz: https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/...g_Guide/7.html
-----
https://www.overclock.net/forum/379-...l#post28004354
From Hale59's links

The Asus WS Ace seems to be running 12x IR3555 (AP1405 PWM = IR35201?) , TUF plus seems to be 12x SiC639 on a mediocre heatsink but it's 7 of 12 on the left heatsink so it should be alright

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Last edited by AlphaC; 06-14-2019 at 11:12 AM.
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