NEW!!! DRAM Calculator for Ryzen™ 1.5.1 (overclocking DRAM on AM4) + MEMbench 0.7 (DRAM bench) - Page 451 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community

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NEW!!! DRAM Calculator for Ryzen™ 1.5.1 (overclocking DRAM on AM4) + MEMbench 0.7 (DRAM bench)

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post #4501 of 4608 (permalink) Old 05-23-2019, 04:48 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ilmazzo View Post
these are suggestions, if they work for your combo of cpu/mobo/ram kit stick to the old values
I understand they are suggestions. I was just wondering if something fundamental changed in the way 1usmus is now calculating for RAM timings and if so what that change is; curiosity about the underlying process as I like to know as much as possible.

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post #4502 of 4608 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 05:48 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Rapidian View Post
@1usmus : The "Fast" Ryzen+, Samsung B-die value for tRFC has gone from 252 before (prev versions of the tool) to 264 now at 3200 MT/s. Do you expect this? That value is even above the alt number, which is 256. Isn't this strange? I was not expecting this change from v1.5.0 to v1.5.1.
Quote: Originally Posted by Exostenza View Post
Also, why does 1.5.1 have looser trfc values than 1.4.1 when they work(ed) perfectly? What is the reasoning behind that new calculation? For example it now says to put it to 264 on the same configuration when it previously recommended 252 which works just great.
Hey @Exostenza , I have the same question and asked it quite some time ago. I don't understand why the new calculator has loosened up the tRFC when the previous one was tighter. Even on the new AGESA that BIOSes have now, 252 works well. I have kept using the 1.4.1 timings for Fast 3200 of my Flare-X RAM. There are no memory errors and as things heat up still no problems. I'd like to understand the same thing.

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post #4503 of 4608 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 06:09 AM
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What's a PC? Windows? Gaming? I'm not sure since buying my first AMD/DDR4 hardware I have not been able to benchmark or play games lol. There's so many frustrating moments setting memtest/prime95 overnight thinking "this is it" and waking up only to see Yellow light or 1-all cores failed.

but not today! almost feels like a dream, this can't be real, the punishment isn't over. What did I switch?

TL : DR, weeks of testing

Inside the BIOS SPD viewer, XMP shows tRFC-2-4 values @ 560-416-256

Dram calculator: Hynix CJR - V1 - 3200 - 2 stixs - B450/X470 XMP shows tRFC 300ns, 3200Mhz & 300ns = 480-357-219

That doesn't seem right! so rebooted, enabled XMP and default memory options in BIOS, run Dram Calculator and start comparing timings of memory type to XMP settings. "Micron B-Die" was almost exact to mine and was "350ns". Applied Micron B-die "safe" timings and overnight prime95 reached 32768K no errors!. Just happy something is stable...




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post #4504 of 4608 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 08:21 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by rdr09 View Post
Did you play with SOC voltage with SMT off? I had no issue oc'ing my 1600 to 3.9 and the RAM to 3466 CL14 (FLareX, though) using the calculator. I will try your method with the Ripjaws.

You play Witcher 3? How does the cpu handle multi-threaded games with SMT off?
Initially I tried with SOC on auto, either it went to 1.22 volts, or stayed low like 1.1 v on my more aggressive memory oc. I didnt like it riding over 1.2, so I tried:
1.1v SOC, mem crashed or threw too many errors.
~1.12, same
said wth, just try 1.2v, 1.2v SOC has been stable. So I left there and haven't messed with it since. Some can argue its not smt, bla bla. I cannot get over 3200mhz ram OC with smt enabled... tried for days. granted 1st gen ryzen, prob the one with the segfault issue or whatever, and early x370 mobo, compatibility is not a selling point here. Ill just leave my data and testing opinion at this, If you have a partially stable memory oc and smt is enabled... try disabling smt and comparing memory errors... I bet smt off will be much more stable. Hopefully 1usmus has seen the pattern or has considered smt a limiting factor and can add input. I assume smt forces the cpu to allocate % of resources on the imc, higher imc usage/resource allocation=less stable overclock and limits oc potential.

How does the cpu handle multithreaded games with smt off? I have basically been living in Overwatch, havent really played anything else, so heads up, and many argue OV is "memory-bound".
Well what I have noticed from testing is this:

SMT on:
lower DPC latency averages.
loose but stable fps numbers. (In the sense I perceived a delay in game when it went from high utilization to low, or low to high. This delay is shorter with SMT off.)
("Were fps higher"? I can't say. Changing 1 Onboard Network Connection affects my fps anywhere from 10fps to 130fps, but if I HAD to form an opinion, SMT ON had higher fps averages OR smoother mouse response (not faster, smoother. I will try to confirm or edit post if I retest, I just might. Kinda wanna see Smt off with higher oc's vs smt on lower oc's and see which has higher fps and lower latency.)

SMT off:
DPC latency higher
System responsiveness higher (fps drop but drop absolutely. System either can either render the image at max fps, or it sinks like a rock to where it can be stable. Very short fps drop delay. I know it sounds contradictory, but HT has a delay when a workload shifts across cores/nodes.)

Edit:New beta bios for ryzen 3000 line flash to mobo, can now do 3466 cl 14 easy peasy with smt. But ive been testing latency of various pc factors and dont recall smt on vs off, i think smt on in general results in lower fps.

Last edited by ylpkm; 05-28-2019 at 11:31 AM.
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post #4505 of 4608 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 01:15 PM
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This is what I've managed to get so far. CAD_BUS numbers in Ryzen Timing Checker obviously wrong. All 4 values are set at 24 ohms in the BIOS. Completed 12 instances of memtest to ~2800% with no errors (lost the windows when I ran MEMBench again). Right now I'm trying to get tRFC a little lower. Set it at 295 with all the other setting the same, and currently memtest is up to ~550% with no errors.

Voltage settings in BIOS: VCore = 1.3125v, LLC 2; VSoC = 1.025v, LLC 5; VDRAM = 1.43v
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post #4506 of 4608 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 02:22 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by zyxwvu4321 View Post
This is what I've managed to get so far. CAD_BUS numbers in Ryzen Timing Checker obviously wrong. All 4 values are set at 24 ohms in the BIOS. Completed 12 instances of memtest to ~2800% with no errors (lost the windows when I ran MEMBench again). Right now I'm trying to get tRFC a little lower. Set it at 295 with all the other setting the same, and currently memtest is up to ~550% with no errors.

Voltage settings in BIOS: VCore = 1.3125v, LLC 2; VSoC = 1.025v, LLC 5; VDRAM = 1.43v
I have found that VSOC @ 1.1v and less DRAM voltage works much better. I think all motherboard just default to VSOC at 1.1v when you OC the RAM anyways and it is far from the 1.25v limit so you'll be fine in the long run. Just a thought for you. It also helps if you're OCing your CPU so it just can't hurt.

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post #4507 of 4608 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 02:45 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Unknownm View Post
What's a PC? Windows? Gaming? I'm not sure since buying my first AMD/DDR4 hardware I have not been able to benchmark or play games lol. There's so many frustrating moments setting memtest/prime95 overnight thinking "this is it" and waking up only to see Yellow light or 1-all cores failed.

but not today! almost feels like a dream, this can't be real, the punishment isn't over. What did I switch?

TL : DR, weeks of testing

Inside the BIOS SPD viewer, XMP shows tRFC-2-4 values @ 560-416-256

Dram calculator: Hynix CJR - V1 - 3200 - 2 stixs - B450/X470 XMP shows tRFC 300ns, 3200Mhz & 300ns = 480-357-219

That doesn't seem right! so rebooted, enabled XMP and default memory options in BIOS, run Dram Calculator and start comparing timings of memory type to XMP settings. "Micron B-Die" was almost exact to mine and was "350ns". Applied Micron B-die "safe" timings and overnight prime95 reached 32768K no errors!. Just happy something is stable...




Spoiler!
This is the perfect example for why I have been asking members for 1½ years now to use default tRFC timings but to no avail, more than that, to make it even worse a program have been introduced here for RAM testing that tests RAM stability in 15 min.-30 min., which is not enough time for the RAM to heat up and show hidden instabilities.

tRFC is a refresh timing, an idle state (no read or write is allowed), a data integrity check interval where the RAM recharges the cells holding charge (means 1, opposite to cells with little to no charge = 0) that is about loose charge, means every cell that is holding a charge will be recharged, to make sure that it registers as 1 when the charge is released on a read operation. The question is: how many cells are not recharged and lost charge because tRFC interval has been cut down?

RAM is heat sensitive because electron migration (electrons migrates from full cells (1) to empty cells (0)) does happen faster when there is a lot of energy, which is the case under heavy duty, and when tRFC is cut in half, say goodbye to stability when the RAM temperature hits 45C-50C.

tRFC intervals depends on heat and die density and are as follows (in every RAM die data sheet that no one reads):

- tRFC: 7.8us up to 85C (8Gbit-350ns, 4Gbit-260ns)
- tRFC-2: 7.8us/2 from 85C to 95C (8Gbit-260ns, 4Gbit-160ns
- tRFC-4: 7.8/4 above 95C (8Gbit-160ns, 4Gbit-110ns)

And Ryzen does use tRFC2 and tRFC4 when RAM hits 85C and above, simply proven by looking at the timings table in the BIOS, if tRFC2 and tRFC4 input feilds are there then they are supported (I think that this very simple to check out).
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post #4508 of 4608 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 03:01 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Ramad View Post
This is the perfect example for why I have been asking members for 1½ years now to use default tRFC timings but to no avail, more than that, to make it even worse a program have been introduced here for RAM testing that tests RAM stability in 15 min.-30 min., which is not enough time for the RAM to heat up and show hidden instabilities.



tRFC is a refresh timing, an idle state (no read or write is allowed), a data integrity check interval where the RAM recharges the cells holding charge (means 1, opposite to cells with little to no charge = 0) that is about loose charge, means every cell that is holding a charge will be recharged, to make sure that it registers as 1 when the charge is released on a read operation. The question is: how many cells are not recharged and lost charge because tRFC interval has been cut down?



RAM is heat sensitive because electron migration (electrons migrates from full cells (1) to empty cells (0)) does happen faster when there is a lot of energy, which is the case under heavy duty, and when tRFC is cut in half, say goodbye to stability when the RAM temperature hits 45C-50C.



tRFC intervals depends on heat and die density and are as follows (in every RAM die data sheet that no one reads):



- tRFC: 7.8us up to 85C (8Gbit-350ns, 4Gbit-260ns)

- tRFC-2: 7.8us/2 from 85C to 95C (8Gbit-260ns, 4Gbit-160ns

- tRFC-4: 7.8/4 above 95C (8Gbit-160ns, 4Gbit-110ns)



And Ryzen does use tRFC2 and tRFC4 when RAM hits 85C and above, simply proven by looking at the timings table in the BIOS, if tRFC2 and tRFC4 input feilds are there then they are supported (I think that this very simple to check out).
I do agree, 15-30mins to determine if you are stable is incorrect least for me.

Good example is running "Hynix CJR" timings and prime95 always passed 1-2h but 3-4h would fail. It was consistent around 1k to 4k fma3 when 3-4h with ANY frequency/Voltage.

The recommended tRFC (2-4 also) are way to low. Even after switching "Hynix CJR" to "Micron B" timings (300ns vs 350ns) its recommended values did not fit 350ns. 560 = 350ns and dram calculator said 478 and lower for alt timing

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post #4509 of 4608 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 04:34 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Exostenza View Post
I understand they are suggestions. I was just wondering if something fundamental changed in the way 1usmus is now calculating for RAM timings and if so what that change is; curiosity about the underlying process as I like to know as much as possible.
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post #4510 of 4608 (permalink) Old 05-24-2019, 07:20 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Exostenza View Post
I have found that VSOC @ 1.1v and less DRAM voltage works much better. I think all motherboard just default to VSOC at 1.1v when you OC the RAM anyways and it is far from the 1.25v limit so you'll be fine in the long run. Just a thought for you. It also helps if you're OCing your CPU so it just can't hurt.
All CPUs are unique and there will be no "set in stone" vSOC, the right SOC voltage is only found through testing a range of voltages and finding the most stable result. This can also change as frequency changes but is not always the case. SOC is always one of the first settings I dial in. Also some have a misconception that increasing the SOC will grant a more stable result and this is also not always the case. A CPU has a personality and it has a certain SOC voltage range it will favor and increasing it or decreasing it outside of that range will yield a less stable setup.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ramad View Post
This is the perfect example for why I have been asking members for 1½ years now to use default tRFC timings but to no avail, more than that, to make it even worse a program have been introduced here for RAM testing that tests RAM stability in 15 min.-30 min., which is not enough time for the RAM to heat up and show hidden instabilities.

tRFC is a refresh timing, an idle state (no read or write is allowed), a data integrity check interval where the RAM recharges the cells holding charge (means 1, opposite to cells with little to no charge = 0) that is about loose charge, means every cell that is holding a charge will be recharged, to make sure that it registers as 1 when the charge is released on a read operation. The question is: how many cells are not recharged and lost charge because tRFC interval has been cut down?

RAM is heat sensitive because electron migration (electrons migrates from full cells (1) to empty cells (0)) does happen faster when there is a lot of energy, which is the case under heavy duty, and when tRFC is cut in half, say goodbye to stability when the RAM temperature hits 45C-50C.

tRFC intervals depends on heat and die density and are as follows (in every RAM die data sheet that no one reads):

- tRFC: 7.8us up to 85C (8Gbit-350ns, 4Gbit-260ns)
- tRFC-2: 7.8us/2 from 85C to 95C (8Gbit-260ns, 4Gbit-160ns
- tRFC-4: 7.8/4 above 95C (8Gbit-160ns, 4Gbit-110ns)

And Ryzen does use tRFC2 and tRFC4 when RAM hits 85C and above, simply proven by looking at the timings table in the BIOS, if tRFC2 and tRFC4 input feilds are there then they are supported (I think that this very simple to check out).
Just because the timing fields are shown in the bios doesnt mean they are supported by AMD. The motherboard manufacturer chooses what fields to include in the bios and what fields to hide. Perfect example is in the C7H bios where there are fields for tREFI and other timings that just arent supported. You can change them all you want but the tREFI value will not change. AMD likely has many timing fields that can be modified if they would allow the motherboard manufacturers to implement them. Maybe they dont think RYZEN in its current state is mature enough or perhaps they dont want to add another avenue for bugs to manifest when they are near release of the new CPUs, maybe we will be able to change some of those values in a later revision. Who knows? Even if tRFC2 and 4 were used at 85c+ then who is running their ram at those temps? Seems like they would have a more pertinent problem with stability due to not only the ram being that hot but the motherboard and components itself. RAM is usually one of the cooler components of a setup. Even benching and running my RAM at 1.7v it never got anywhere near temps like you are speaking of. You will lose stability at those temps that tRFC adjustments wont solve if you are already running tight timings.

Quote: Originally Posted by Unknownm View Post
I do agree, 15-30mins to determine if you are stable is incorrect least for me.

Good example is running "Hynix CJR" timings and prime95 always passed 1-2h but 3-4h would fail. It was consistent around 1k to 4k fma3 when 3-4h with ANY frequency/Voltage.

The recommended tRFC (2-4 also) are way to low. Even after switching "Hynix CJR" to "Micron B" timings (300ns vs 350ns) its recommended values did not fit 350ns. 560 = 350ns and dram calculator said 478 and lower for alt timing

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That depends on how you use your system. If you just game and you arent Encoding or stressing your system like Prime95 would then you would be stable as your system would never encounter situations like that and the likelihood of a detrimental error would be slim to none. Now, if you do use the system in such a manner then you would be correct, the system would need a more extensive stability test. For most, 30min to an hour in Prime95 is sufficient and Id even go as far as to say Prime95 isnt even needed for those that fall into that category. Couple hours with HCI is good enough, the CPU will never see much of a load at all in gaming scenarios. With that being said, do whatever gives you peace of mind in stability testing. Doesnt hurt to have more testing and more stability.

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