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How much of a leg up have Intel's security issues given Ryzen?

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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 05-30-2019, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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How much of a leg up have Intel's security issues given Ryzen?

With Meltdown/Spectre last year, Zombieload this year, and who know what else next year and beyond - along with the performance crippling patches needed to address them - I've pretty much decided to go with Ryzen 3000 this time around.

That said, are there any recent benchmarks that compare Intel before and after all these patches with AMD?

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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-08-2019, 01:18 AM
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Depends on workload, to be frank with you. We don't know how Zen2 is IPC wise. The reality is that given Intel's security issues and the recent leak of them trying to bribe researchers, I highly suspect there will be more security flaws published in the coming year. Intel won't have a brand new architecture Intel 2023 at the latest. I sincerely doubt they'll be able to release Sapphire Rapids in 2021 given their slide leaks courtesy of Huawei.

Intel is due to release some patches in a few weeks. That said, if AMD somehow maintains a healthy IPC increase with each generation than Intel will be facing some important decisions. That said, in AVX512 workloads, and Intel processor is going to be better. AVX workloads tend to be niche so I wouldn't focus too much on them unless your work relies on those instruction sets for efficiency and money savings.

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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-08-2019, 07:57 AM
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It is not so much a leg up, but rather if they had actually cared about security in the first place. If they had of cared then these issues would not exist but then they also knew performance would have been much much worse all along. You cannot look at these issues in an isolated way to compare both companies. We already knew intel had shady business practices with the bribes they used to pay.

Yeah there are some benchmarks floating around...can't remember where though and the performance hits are brutal. I even saw some comparing bulldozer cpu vs the comparable intel at the time with and without the security patches. Those are even more brutal. AMD and Intel were on par and traded blows depending on workloads. And back then you also have to take into consideration Intel was also paying for companies to use the intel compiler which would also cripple how AMD would show.

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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 02:02 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by mtrai View Post
It is not so much a leg up, but rather if they had actually cared about security in the first place. If they had of cared then these issues would not exist but then they also knew performance would have been much much worse all along. You cannot look at these issues in an isolated way to compare both companies. We already knew intel had shady business practices with the bribes they used to pay.

Yeah there are some benchmarks floating around...can't remember where though and the performance hits are brutal. I even saw some comparing bulldozer cpu vs the comparable intel at the time with and without the security patches. Those are even more brutal. AMD and Intel were on par and traded blows depending on workloads. And back then you also have to take into consideration Intel was also paying for companies to use the intel compiler which would also cripple how AMD would show.
You make a good point. Actually, to expound on what you said, I wonder how long they knew about these. Was it during development? Probably not. The university bribes hail from a year ago. Imagine if they knew this several years ago. I wonder if a lawsuit ever goes through what would be found during discovery.

My general understanding is that parts of Core arch were lifted from the P6 days. Core has evolved over the last 19 years despite Intel's clever but short lived tick-tock cycle.

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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-09-2019, 02:22 AM
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I think sacrificing the security of their processors is the whole reason why intel has had a leg up this entire time. I don't think it is AMD that has the leg up. Its like Intel was an athlete and they just got bust for using PEDs. It didn't suddenly give AMD and advantage. Just brought everything back down to where it should of been this entire time.

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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 07:25 AM
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Agreed. I can remember conversations about the back doors 20 years ago. It just took this long for the general public to discover them. And yes intel cheated and made Billions. They knew exactly what they were doing and chose that path.

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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-10-2019, 07:41 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by miklkit View Post
Agreed. I can remember conversations about the back doors 20 years ago. It just took this long for the general public to discover them. And yes intel cheated and made Billions. They knew exactly what they were doing and chose that path.
Pretty much. And keeping the lid on with $$$ for the few that dared and had the skill to dig deep and discover crap.

If there is some leak of Intel trying to bribe researchers now? It's IMHO more of someone finally talking about it, about something that has been going on for ages, someone doesn't want the money anymore.

The original in recent years popularized issues were known since early 90s, problem was no one had the time or conscience to present a proof on actual hardware as such Intel kept dismissing the known issues as "theoretical" only... hoping that no one would break it in reality and those who did would be kept $$$ quiet. They $$$ influence benchmarks, researchers/hackers digging into their own products, pay researchers/hackers to dig into products of competition even so much so as to make fake reports for sole purpose of brand image damage.

As far as performance goes... for some workloads the software mitigations did have an impact.

Yes Core is nothing more but a modernized Pentium, developed from the mobile more power efficient variant. That's also why the old known issues were finally broken, they were still present and more were added when multi core and multi threading was added.
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-13-2019, 03:41 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
Pretty much. And keeping the lid on with $$$ for the few that dared and had the skill to dig deep and discover crap.

If there is some leak of Intel trying to bribe researchers now? It's IMHO more of someone finally talking about it, about something that has been going on for ages, someone doesn't want the money anymore.

The original in recent years popularized issues were known since early 90s, problem was no one had the time or conscience to present a proof on actual hardware as such Intel kept dismissing the known issues as "theoretical" only... hoping that no one would break it in reality and those who did would be kept $$$ quiet. They $$$ influence benchmarks, researchers/hackers digging into their own products, pay researchers/hackers to dig into products of competition even so much so as to make fake reports for sole purpose of brand image damage.

As far as performance goes... for some workloads the software mitigations did have an impact.

Yes Core is nothing more but a modernized Pentium, developed from the mobile more power efficient variant. That's also why the old known issues were finally broken, they were still present and more were added when multi core and multi threading was added.
Yeah this is what surprised me when I dig into the Intel architecture several years back. Core uses many components of P6, and while Core was modernized a handful years after it came out, it still retained many of its flaws. It's karma as far as I'm concerned. I think it says something when Microsoft is using Epyc for Azure and Amazon is looking to use Epyc.

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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-13-2019, 05:11 AM
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Hi,
Doubt any

Only amd performance will give them any boost or real consideration towards gamers....
Otherwise they will stay as the budget build crowds choice
TR is impressive and as long as that keeps going amd will excel

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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 06-14-2019, 06:36 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by SwitchFX View Post
Depends on workload, to be frank with you. We don't know how Zen2 is IPC wise. The reality is that given Intel's security issues and the recent leak of them trying to bribe researchers, I highly suspect there will be more security flaws published in the coming year. Intel won't have a brand new architecture Intel 2023 at the latest. I sincerely doubt they'll be able to release Sapphire Rapids in 2021 given their slide leaks courtesy of Huawei.

Intel is due to release some patches in a few weeks. That said, if AMD somehow maintains a healthy IPC increase with each generation than Intel will be facing some important decisions. That said, in AVX512 workloads, and Intel processor is going to be better. AVX workloads tend to be niche so I wouldn't focus too much on them unless your work relies on those instruction sets for efficiency and money savings.
Intel will only put a cover on it.. mainly because the full root cause is a lot of the cores initial arch.. see below

Quote: Originally Posted by mtrai View Post
It is not so much a leg up, but rather if they had actually cared about security in the first place. If they had of cared then these issues would not exist but then they also knew performance would have been much much worse all along. You cannot look at these issues in an isolated way to compare both companies. We already knew intel had shady business practices with the bribes they used to pay.

Yeah there are some benchmarks floating around...can't remember where though and the performance hits are brutal. I even saw some comparing bulldozer cpu vs the comparable intel at the time with and without the security patches. Those are even more brutal. AMD and Intel were on par and traded blows depending on workloads. And back then you also have to take into consideration Intel was also paying for companies to use the intel compiler which would also cripple how AMD would show.
correct the security should have been fixed but they where making too much money and that wasn't a focus

Quote: Originally Posted by SwitchFX View Post
You make a good point. Actually, to expound on what you said, I wonder how long they knew about these. Was it during development? Probably not. The university bribes hail from a year ago. Imagine if they knew this several years ago. I wonder if a lawsuit ever goes through what would be found during discovery.

My general understanding is that parts of Core arch were lifted from the P6 days. Core has evolved over the last 19 years despite Intel's clever but short lived tick-tock cycle.
see below

Quote: Originally Posted by Alastair View Post
I think sacrificing the security of their processors is the whole reason why intel has had a leg up this entire time. I don't think it is AMD that has the leg up. Its like Intel was an athlete and they just got bust for using PEDs. It didn't suddenly give AMD and advantage. Just brought everything back down to where it should of been this entire time.
For the most part this.. it isn't a leg up unless you are referring to PR

(ps ya missed me? well im back looks like I has no more reps anymores though le sigh lol)

Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
Pretty much. And keeping the lid on with $$$ for the few that dared and had the skill to dig deep and discover crap.

If there is some leak of Intel trying to bribe researchers now? It's IMHO more of someone finally talking about it, about something that has been going on for ages, someone doesn't want the money anymore.

The original in recent years popularized issues were known since early 90s, problem was no one had the time or conscience to present a proof on actual hardware as such Intel kept dismissing the known issues as "theoretical" only... hoping that no one would break it in reality and those who did would be kept $$$ quiet. They $$$ influence benchmarks, researchers/hackers digging into their own products, pay researchers/hackers to dig into products of competition even so much so as to make fake reports for sole purpose of brand image damage.

As far as performance goes... for some workloads the software mitigations did have an impact.

Yes Core is nothing more but a modernized Pentium, developed from the mobile more power efficient variant. That's also why the old known issues were finally broken, they were still present and more were added when multi core and multi threading was added.
This.. the cores issues are a result in security flaw from the derived arch.. with that being said that it was been improved on and the flaws are now mitigated through other security software patches however on a hardware level the only "patch" that can be provided would be a driver patch reroute etc the handling of threads.. the issue is that Intel isn't going to go full circle on it because that would cause a huge overhead that would degrade performance.. so what you will see is a way to make it look better in publics eyes as they tried to fix it.. same old Intel and thats how business is.. they made far more money doing wrong than was worth spending to do right and if they have to pay for it.. its pennys on the dollar for them.

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