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post #41 of 97 (permalink) Old 11-18-2019, 02:08 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by HybridCore View Post
The AsRock BIOS is pretty annoying to work with. It has a lot of features but a decent chunk of them are broken (maybe it's better now). VRMs on the ASUS B450 or X470 boards are pretty bad until the very high end, though at that point you're better off considering some of the $150-$200 X570 boards Buildzoid recommended in his motherboard roundup instead for better VRMs at a lower cost.
It got better, but I am used to fact that "Disable Sata Controller" did not worked properly on any board i had in last 10 years (NVMe atm). VRM on my particular board was same as on Asus top board, but TR4 is ofc completely different platform. On high overclock and running Prime95 VRMs barely got to 50°C, while its apparently not built for 180w tdp, but 250watt.

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$130 would be the most I'd spend for non-X570 which would be the MSi B450 Gaming Pro Carbon AC. Buildzoid is slightly on the fence with that board just because a very good X570 board is right at $130 (Asus Prime X570-P) with another at $165 (ASUS TUF Gaming X570-PLUS), but if you don't plan on overclocking with a 3900X (stock 3900X or overclocked 3800X and below are fine on the good B450 boards) and either 1. don't want the chipset fan, 2. want Intel LAN, or 3. were going to get Wi-Fi anyways, this is a good board.

The B-die doesn't mean much if he isn't going to spend the time trying to tighten up his secondary timings and there's bad B-die as well. A CJR kit will be fine so he can at least get an FCLK of 1800MHz with no extra work. E-die if he wants to save another $30 over the CJR kit he currently has and is willing to spend the minimal effort needed to use the Ryzen DRAM calculator and copy paste those timings into his BIOS.
High RAM frequency also benefits to Ryzens, not sure about current 3000s. Combo of my Gskills Xflare and Threadripper is the most stable CPU+RAM combo I ever had, in both oc and non-oc scenarios. I agree with most of the specs here, one thing might help to RAM OC - if its 8 layered board.

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post #42 of 97 (permalink) Old 11-18-2019, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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it looks like newegg is going to have the 3800x on sale for essentially the same price as the 3700x

if they are the same price I should go with the 3800x, right? or is there some other reason not to go for the 3800x?

The intel 660p is qlc nand and I should stay away, right? newegg has that for really cheap...

also any reason not to save a few bucks on the ram? 3200 @ 16 cas vs 3600 @ 16 cas

https://www.newegg.com/g-skill-32gb-...r-_-20-232-748

vs.

https://www.newegg.com/g-skill-32gb-...zcX0b8NL52qN.w

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Last edited by dirty elf; 11-18-2019 at 11:48 AM.
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post #43 of 97 (permalink) Old 11-18-2019, 10:55 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by dirty elf View Post
it looks like newegg is going to have the 3800x on sale for essentially the same price as the 3700x

if they are the same price I should go with the 3800x, right? or is there some other reason not to go for the 3800x?

The intel 660p is 3d nand and I should stay away, right? newegg has that for really cheap...

also any reason not to save a few bucks on the ram? 3200 @ 16 cas vs 3600 @ 16 cas

https://www.newegg.com/g-skill-32gb-...r-_-20-232-748

vs.

https://www.newegg.com/g-skill-32gb-...zcX0b8NL52qN.w
I mean if it goes on sale for the same price, yea go for the 3800x. Even though most people say to grab the 3700x and overclock it to 3800x levels to save money, there is a chance the 3800x would be a better binned chip and have a bit more overclocking headroom than a 3700x.

660p is probably the most controversial drive on this forum lol. For a primary drive, I would go with something a bit better. If you wanted to grab one as a 2nd drive they are fine in most ever day scenarios.

The Neo is supposedly designed for better compatibility with Ryzen systems. However, if you take some time tweaking timings/overclocking the cheaper kit, you could likely achieve very similar results.

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post #44 of 97 (permalink) Old 11-18-2019, 10:55 AM
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The Intel 660P is cheap because it uses QLC NAND flash and in some use cases can be as slow or even slower than a good old HDD
As for the 3800x if its the same price as the 3700x sure go ahead but dont pay extra for it

Edit: 3200 Mhz vs 3600 MHz dont make a huge difference you can see how in a video like this one

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post #45 of 97 (permalink) Old 11-18-2019, 01:40 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Offler View Post
High RAM frequency also benefits to Ryzens, not sure about current 3000s. Combo of my Gskills Xflare and Threadripper is the most stable CPU+RAM combo I ever had, in both oc and non-oc scenarios. I agree with most of the specs here, one thing might help to RAM OC - if its 8 layered board.
Zen 2 has some interesting behavior when it comes to the Infinity Fabric clock (FCLK) and memory clock (MCLK). As a reminder for those who forgot or didn't know, DDR (double data rate) buses transfer data on both the rising and falling edge of the clock instead of just the rising or just the falling edge, hence why a MCLK of 1800MHz translates to an equivalent DDR clock of 3600MHz. I'm going to neglect talking about UCLK as well to simplify things but the general idea is still the same (just with one less frequency to get confused about).

On Zen and Zen+, the FCLK was strictly tied to MCLK (no decoupling) and the FCLK couldn't really go that high to begin with, hence why Ryzen 1000 and 2000 had a lot of difficulty with higher speed RAM kits. In the end, the higher your MCLK (and therefore FCLK), the better performance you'd get.

Zen 2 on the other hand decouples the FCLK from the MCLK so that the FCLK, which usually tops out around 1800-1900MHz on the current Ryzen 3000 IMCs, doesn't hold MCLK back. By default, once you're at 1900MHz FCLK it will swap to a 2:1 MCLK:FCLK ratio. In 1:1, an MCLK of 1900MHz (DDR# 3800MHz) would result in a FCLK of 1900MHz. In 2:1, a 1900MHz MCLK would result in a meager FCLK of 950MHz so there's actually a performance penalty until you reach some insane MCLK speeds (we're talking like 7000MHz+ RAM).

There's the option to specify the MCLK:FCLK ratio such that they aren't perfect multiples of each other so you don't have that giant drop in performance from going directly to 2:1 from 1:1 but that on its own still has some penalties in performance due to desync between the two.

Hence on Zen 2, you really only want RAM between 3600-3800MHz and 3800MHz is if your IMC can even handle it. You actually get worse performance on those 3933MHz+ kits unless you want to go through the arduous process of messing with FCLK:MCLK ratios. It's not worth the hassle so you're better off just sticking to the range where MCLK maxes out FCLK while still keeping the 1:1 ratio. Besides, timings get looser far faster than frequency can keep up once your frequencies are in the 4000MHz+ range so at that point your memory performance will get very bad very quickly.

It's worth trying to get FCLK as high as you can since that will affect die-to-die or CCX to CCX communication speeds. It's not very expensive to do so either since 32GB (2x16 or 4x8) Micron Rev.E kits are only $140-$150 anyways and those kits are known to clock very easily up to the mid to high 4000MHz range. You just spend the 10 minutes using the Ryzen DRAM calculator and copying in the timings that provides into BIOS. Literally just try 1:1 w/ your memory at 3800MHz and then go to 3733 then 3600 if your IMC can't handle the higher speeds without needing to switch to 2:1. It's free performance at no cost.

Number of layers doesn't matter that much. All that matters is the layout/topology. As long as the board isn't doing something truly horrendous like stacking components on top of the memory traces, it'll be fine. There's horrible 8-layer motherboards and very good 4 or 6-layer motherboards. The IMC is likely to be the limiting factor anyways. We're not clocking the RAM to insane speeds or hoping for insanely tight timings.

Last edited by HybridCore; 01-30-2020 at 05:22 PM.
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post #46 of 97 (permalink) Old 11-18-2019, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
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I'll stick with the 3600 memory.

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post #47 of 97 (permalink) Old 11-18-2019, 02:00 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by dirty elf View Post
The intel 660p is qlc nand and I should stay away, right? newegg has that for really cheap...

also any reason not to save a few bucks on the ram? 3200 @ 16 cas vs 3600 @ 16 cas

https://www.newegg.com/g-skill-32gb-...r-_-20-232-748

vs.

https://www.newegg.com/g-skill-32gb-...zcX0b8NL52qN.w
Not all NAND is made equally. There's fast TLC NAND and slow TLC NAND, fast VNAND/3DNAND and slow VNAND/3DNAND, etc.

QLC NAND in general is just awful for performance right now (as in it can actually cause the drive to be a slow as an HDD). Just stay with the Phison E12 + Toshiba BiCS TLC (not QLC) drives on that thread I linked you and don't bother with anything else (unless the Samsung 970 EVO/EVO Plus or WD SN 750 drop to the same price or lower). You lose a lot of performance going otherwise just to save what...$5-$15? For a system you're keeping for 10 years, not worth.

If you want to save money on RAM, just get the Ballistix Sport LT 3000 or 3200 MHz E-die kits and overclock it to 3600-3800MHz. It's a 10-20 minute job and extremely low risk. You don't even have to spend the time to experiment with timings. Just get the Ryzen DRAM Calculator and use the timings from that.

Your SSD and RAM are basically solved problems. For the SSD, whatever is cheapest among the Phison E12 + Toshiba BiCS TLC drives (they're all clones of the Phison reference design and have the same 5 year warranty) or, if they somehow drop to the same price, the Samsung 970 EVO/EVO Plus/Pro or WD Black SN750 (unlikely to happen). For the RAM, Ballstix Sport LT 3000/3200MHz or the Hynix CJR kit if you're that opposed to spending the 10 minutes to enter your own speed and timings for the E-die using the Ryzen DRAM calculator.

The only things that are up in the air are your CPU which affects your motherboard (only if you plan on overclocking) and whatever happens to be the least expensive PSU during this month. If the 3700X doesn't go on sale, then the 3800X at the price of a 3700X is going to be the way to go. Since it's not the 3900X, you can do a pretty heavy overclock on the B450 boards.

Last edited by HybridCore; 11-19-2019 at 01:23 PM.
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post #48 of 97 (permalink) Old 11-18-2019, 05:22 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by HybridCore View Post
Number of layers doesn't matter that much. All that matters is the layout/topology. As long as the board isn't doing something truly horrendous like stacking components on top of the memory traces, it'll be fine. There's horrible 8-layer motherboards and very good 4 or 6-layer motherboards. The IMC is likely to be the limiting factor anyways. We're not clocking the RAM to insane speeds or hoping for insanely tight timings.
Agree on this, while when it comes to RAM, i started to get good or excellent results (OC and/or tight timings) when RAMs were placed on 8 layered PCBs. After that i looked on that feature on MBs as well, and atm i am not disapointed.

But also i started to look for DIMMs with same batches of memory chips. Therefore i knew my DDR3 had Elpida Hypers, and my current DDR4 has Samsung B-die, while different batches of the chips are not mixed up.

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post #49 of 97 (permalink) Old 11-19-2019, 09:04 AM - Thread Starter
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3800x/3700x: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/MwxTJb

3900x: https://pcpartpicker.com/list/QpfVcq

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post #50 of 97 (permalink) Old 11-19-2019, 09:07 AM
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You dont need a 750 watt PSU its way overkill and there are better options than the Corsair RM like the Fractal Design Ion+ which is better in every way
Its also better than the Seasonic Focus by the way

https://www.newegg.com/fractal-desig...-022-_-Product

Dont buy a Samsung 970 Evo its way overpriced and there are drives almost as good and way cheaper such as the Corsair Force MP510 or the PNY XLR8

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Last edited by shilka; 11-19-2019 at 09:14 AM.
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