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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-29-2019, 10:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Hynix C-Die vs Samsung B-Die 2x16GB kits

I am trying to find information or a review comparing these two kits, but have had no luck finding a comparison so far. There are 2 kits made by G.Skill in the Trident Z Neo line:
F4-3600C16D-32GTZN, Samsung B-Die, 16-16-16-36 timings, ~$300
F4-3600C16D-32GTZNC, Hynix C-Die, 16-19-19-39 timings, ~$160
and for the sake of comparison,
F4-3600C16D-16GTZN, Samsung B-Die, 16-16-16-36, ~$160 (same as the above Hynix)
F4-3600C16D-16GTZNC, Hynix C-Die, 16-19-19-39, ~$95

It's not clear to me how much of a practical disadvantage the Hynix kits are. As far as capacities go, you get double the capacity from Hynix over Samsung.

Here are a couple of reviews of the GTZNC kits:
https://www.guru3d.com/articles-page...-review,1.html
https://www.eteknix.com/g-skill-trid...z-ddr4-review/

I've seen some dramatic changes in reviews using gaming benchmarks from large changes like a 3000-16 kit going to a 3600-16 kit, but it's hazy what the difference here might be given same CL, but different sub-timings. Can anyone help clear up my confusion on the matter?
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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-29-2019, 11:47 PM
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Gaming and benchmarking memory latency is the only difference. Samsung B-die chips will be the lowest latency which should give you a few FPS over the other kits in games.

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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-30-2019, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey Redwoodz, thanks for the answer. That's the thing I am having trouble answering: what the actual difference between these high-end Hynix kits and B-Die kits is. I suspect it's largely an academic question, but damn am I not curious. I'm just not sufficiently loaded to get both and test (given Newegg's crap return policies). I've found some benches comparing lower-end RAM kits with B-Die, and there's some difference there depending on how tweakable the kit is. These Hynix seem pretty high-end though by comparison. Ryzen RAM calculator is suggesting I might even be able to run them at 16-16-19-32 (or thereabouts) at 3600. The biggest difference ends up being the tRFC setting, going from high-200s/low-300s on B-die to 500-600 on the Hynix. It would be interesting to know what the relationship between tRFC and framerates is at that point.

Yeah, I know I'm probably overthinking it! I'm mostly leaning toward the 32GB kit at this point given the close timings, and my occasional forays into running random VMs. But then I think maybe I should just get whatever the fastest thing is right now if there's sufficient difference... bah
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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-30-2019, 05:33 PM
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Hi,
I believe you'd have to tweak either one frankly tRFC is higher than you are posting on b-die but tuning it down to 375 is a sweet spot
I could never get hynix to get that low
Best I ever got hynix to go is 450 before it would post
Of course you can double tREFI from 14038 auto to 28076 possibly more.

Bottom line b-die even though more expensive is worth it if you want even half a chance to visit 4000MHz or above hynix or micro for that matter will never be able too

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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 11-30-2019, 11:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Ah, didn't know tRFC was typically higher. I was just going by what the Ryzen RAM Calculator by 1usmus was suggesting on various kits while I was playing with it. What does tRFC do in practice here? I think as far as 4000 goes, I'd at best be running 3733, or just stick to 3600. Not looking for "extreme" here, just as close to high-end without selling any organs. This means a budget of somewhere under $200 (thus excluding the sweet 3600CL16 32GB kit at $290 or the neato 3600CL14 16GB kit at the same price). From a bunch of reviews, it seems there can be a 10-15% delta in framerates between cheapo RAM kits and B-dies at high clocks. Where my question arises is more from trying to understand the practical differences between the not-as-cheapo-and-quite-decent-looking Hynix-based kits rated for nearly the same timings as the B-dies and said B-dies.
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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-01-2019, 11:38 AM
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Hi,
Besides it's description I don't know
tRFC = DRAM REF Cycle Time
tREFI = DRAM Refresh Interval

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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-02-2019, 07:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Pretty much! I see people talking about timings this, timings that, but no one has done a comprehensive analysis of their relationships to any sort of outcomes besides "all tighter is more better." Eh, screw it, I went with the 16GB of b-die. It's a bit more expensive, but not in a particularly tangible way. I've been able to run all kinds of workloads on my aging X58 build with 12GB of RAM, so I have no doubts 16GB would be just fine for basically any gaming or dev. Worst case when running multiple VMs it might have to page out, but with how fast modern NVMe SSDs are, I doubt it would be a big deal. Having memory with already tight timings might allow me to mess around with those sub-timings too, and actually try to document some kind of a relationship.
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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-02-2019, 10:15 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by brambles View Post
from high-200s/low-300s on B-die to 500-600 on the Hynix. It would be interesting to know what the relationship between tRFC and framerates is at that point.
TRFC=294 , FPS=49.04, max-min 42.7-90.91, CPU use 24.0%, max-min 17.5-70.7%, GPU use 87.4%
TRFC=588 , FPS=48.96, max-min 46.2-88.56, CPU use 24.1%, max-min 16.7-60.6%, GPU use 87.7%

GRW game in 7680x1440, high preset on Ryzen1700 2x8GB [email protected], 2xGTX1080 in SLI, 3x1440p monitors
I had same or better 50+ FPS with Hynix M-die(the slowest)@3000-14 but with older Windows10 versions.
Will update with Hynix C-die or DJR-die 2x16GB when I get it installed and see what the chip lottery brings.

RAM has some effect in 1080p games. At 1440p and 4K the effect or RAM diminishes significantly.
RAM speed is only critical in RAM-heavy applications such as computational fluid dynamics with tons of data. These engineering tools work better on Xeons or Threadrippers anyway with multi-channel memory interfaces.
For games, money is best spent on a monitor, then GPU, then CPU, then RAM.
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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-02-2019, 11:03 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by brambles View Post
F4-3600C16D-32GTZN, Samsung B-Die, 16-16-16-36 timings, ~$300
F4-3600C16D-32GTZNC, Hynix C-Die, 16-19-19-39 timings, ~$160
You can get 2x16GB B-die memory with this kit:
F4-3200C14D-32Gxxx
or any kit with 3200 14-14-14 timing

And G.Skill kits of that family can be had for $229 at Newegg. You can get it up to 3600 CL15 or even CL14 with a little manual tweaking of the settings. For the kit you're referenced above, you're pretty much paying $300 for XMP settings.

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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 12-02-2019, 08:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by 1TM1 View Post
TRFC=294 , FPS=49.04, max-min 42.7-90.91, CPU use 24.0%, max-min 17.5-70.7%, GPU use 87.4%
TRFC=588 , FPS=48.96, max-min 46.2-88.56, CPU use 24.1%, max-min 16.7-60.6%, GPU use 87.7%

GRW game in 7680x1440, high preset on Ryzen1700 2x8GB [email protected], 2xGTX1080 in SLI, 3x1440p monitors
I had same or better 50+ FPS with Hynix M-die(the slowest)@3000-14 but with older Windows10 versions.
Will update with Hynix C-die or DJR-die 2x16GB when I get it installed and see what the chip lottery brings.

RAM has some effect in 1080p games. At 1440p and 4K the effect or RAM diminishes significantly.
RAM speed is only critical in RAM-heavy applications such as computational fluid dynamics with tons of data. These engineering tools work better on Xeons or Threadrippers anyway with multi-channel memory interfaces.
For games, money is best spent on a monitor, then GPU, then CPU, then RAM.
Fair point. Have monitor, CPU, now RAM. The GPU is a 1070Ti, but I'm holding off for a bigger upgrade there when the next gen nVidia stuff comes out.

Quote: Originally Posted by briank View Post
You can get 2x16GB B-die memory with this kit:
F4-3200C14D-32Gxxx
or any kit with 3200 14-14-14 timing

And G.Skill kits of that family can be had for $229 at Newegg. You can get it up to 3600 CL15 or even CL14 with a little manual tweaking of the settings. For the kit you're referenced above, you're pretty much paying $300 for XMP settings.
A fool and his money... yada yada. I ended up ordering the 2x8GB kit in 16-16-16-36 for $160 from Newegg thinking I'd get it to 3600CL14 and an all around fastest experience. Looks like 3200CL14 B-Die kits are $220, so just $60 more for 16GB more RAM. It sounds like the difference is negligible. I'd rethink it, but Newegg's return policy is garbage, so meh.

Sounds like I probably goofed
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