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post #41 of 49 (permalink) Old 02-02-2020, 11:36 AM
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I am in a similar conundrum. I have a 1600 non x that is running 4.125Ghz with ram at 3000Mhz in an X470 board, seriously looking at the 3900X right now. Just not sure if it will be worth waiting for the 4000 series to drop and get something in the sub 500 price range or not. With the potential 20% IPC increase it screams wait but at the same time the price is in the right range for the 3900X and I don't want the cash to end up burning a hole in my pocket and end up stuck on the 1600.

Is it going to be worth the wait or is the 3900X going to be something that will be worthwhile for a long while. And I know the X570 and potential 600 series boards add more lanes and whatnot but to be honest what they add will not really be all that useful and are more a if you build it they will come type of deal. My plan is to stick with the x470 board I have.
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post #42 of 49 (permalink) Old 02-02-2020, 11:44 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by NightShade00013 View Post
I am in a similar conundrum. I have a 1600 non x that is running 4.125Ghz with ram at 3000Mhz in an X470 board, seriously looking at the 3900X right now. Just not sure if it will be worth waiting for the 4000 series to drop and get something in the sub 500 price range or not. With the potential 20% IPC increase it screams wait but at the same time the price is in the right range for the 3900X and I don't want the cash to end up burning a hole in my pocket and end up stuck on the 1600.

Is it going to be worth the wait or is the 3900X going to be something that will be worthwhile for a long while. And I know the X570 and potential 600 series boards add more lanes and whatnot but to be honest what they add will not really be all that useful and are more a if you build it they will come type of deal. My plan is to stick with the x470 board I have.
The main question before upgrading should always be what can my (your) system NOT do that you would like it to. If that question doesn't really matter, then the next question should be, what else could I use the money for if I didn't upgrade.

The 3900X is a FANTASTIC chip (and at a decentish price relative to other 12 core CPUs esp since you can just drop it in the X470 board), but can you make use of the extra cores/faster single core perf? If you can and you have the cash to upgrade without having to sacrifice something else, by all means, go for it! Realistically, if you get the 3900x and something better comes out, you can always sell it and put that money towards the next upgrade.
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post #43 of 49 (permalink) Old 02-02-2020, 11:57 AM
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I game with the system and process video's on it as well so the shortened time of processing will come in handy. This system will probably be the last one I do for a while. My wife passed away last year and with a little bit of the insurance policy money I built this system and upgraded from an fx8350 that was honestly a very hot slug. The 1600 honestly has ran great so far but like I said this will be the last one for a long while so the plan was always to grab something like the 3900X so it should be viable for a while no matter what I am doing.

I know that I may not get the OC out of it that I am currently getting out of the 1600 but the sheer doubling of the physical cores and threads will more than compensate for that. I figured selling the 1600 for around 80 or so would put the total cost of upgrade at just over 400 with tax and I have it available. The 1600 was a clear win in the silicon lottery though, this is the old 14NM version and not the AF and overclocked like a dream.

I guess in some ways I am just trying to decide what is the right thing to do. Wait for a potentially better cpu or buy now.

The only other thing I would end up spending money on is to swap the Dual E5640's I have in my server to X5690's and I can still do both easily right now.

Last edited by NightShade00013; 02-02-2020 at 12:03 PM.
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post #44 of 49 (permalink) Old 02-02-2020, 12:04 PM
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Ryzen 4000 will most likely be the last AM4 series cpu's. So it might be worth waiting for if you just want to upgrade your cpu. If you go 3000 now it might not be worth jumping to 4000 later. As Ryzen 5000 will most likely require AM5 and DDR5. That is if you are like me and only upgrade every 2-3 years. But my DDR4 was expensive that is why i plan to hold on to it for a while. That is why i chose to wait for Ryzen 4000.

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post #45 of 49 (permalink) Old 02-02-2020, 12:36 PM
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Right, only upgrade will be the CPU. I have a EKWB 240MM rad kit that I used for cooling and 32GB of DDR4 3200 so no real plans to go to another platform/board. Honestly I expected the 3000 series to be the last AM4 cpu. Once this upgrade is done I will probably not do much other than maybe a GPU change from the GTX1080 I currently have in the system since even though I have two more the whole crossfire/SLI scene is pretty well dead for gaming. So I guess I will wait for the 4000 series as well. Just need to find a good way to keep from spending the cash, LOL.
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post #46 of 49 (permalink) Old 02-04-2020, 01:56 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by NightShade00013 View Post
I have a 1600 non x that is running 4.125Ghz with ram at 3000Mhz in an X470 board, seriously looking at the 3900X right now. Just not sure if it will be worth waiting for the 4000 series to drop and get something in the sub 500 price range or not. With the potential 20% IPC increase it screams wait but at the same time the price is in the right range for the 3900X and I don't want the cash to end up burning a hole in my pocket and end up stuck on the 1600.

Is it going to be worth the wait or is the 3900X going to be something that will be worthwhile for a long while. And I know the X570 and potential 600 series boards add more lanes and whatnot but to be honest what they add will not really be all that useful and are more a if you build it they will come type of deal. My plan is to stick with the x470 board I have.
Quote: Originally Posted by NightShade00013 View Post
I have a EKWB 240MM rad kit that I used for cooling and 32GB of DDR4 3200 so no real plans to go to another platform/board. Honestly I expected the 3000 series to be the last AM4 cpu. Once this upgrade is done I will probably not do much other than maybe a GPU change from the GTX1080 I currently have in the system since even though I have two more the whole crossfire/SLI scene is pretty well dead for gaming. So I guess I will wait for the 4000 series as well. Just need to find a good way to keep from spending the cash, LOL.
Let me mention couple of things [Part 1/2]
But here i'm speaking purely out of my personal view, which it can be disagreed ~ but that is purely fine

3rd gen is not thaat interesting when it comes to an architectural upgrade
the only special thing on it is a bit better signal integrity by a tiny bit of architectural change
(moved the IMC away and finetuned low level access towards it aka half synch mode)
The difference between first and 2nd gen was big from the performance side of things ~ actually mostly on the memory controller
and also a big part on the inter-core latency (but that is not an architectural change, rather a setting which gives it a bigger IPC boost)

Except the 300Mhz more you could get from a 1700 -> 2700
- the way better memory controller which lowers required SOC voltage drastically
~ improving signal integrity -> required procODT -> soo max potencial memory OC
and the better 12nm CCD (200mhz higher OC)
There was not that much of a change while we where praising it as a huge upgrade
Well it was a significant one from the memory controller side of things

But comparing that to something like a 2700 -> 3700
(oke, that's unfair, let's use 2700 -> 3900X and just ignore that CCDs are 3+3cores instead 2+2 on 12nm
let's just focus on potential OC and potential memory OC to improve IPC)

On the memory controller side of things "nothing" changed
It's a rebranded K17 IMC now called K17.7 staying architecturally identical ~ but on the substrate and it's location + control, couple of things changed
On one hand Signal Integrity changed by quite a big chunk, lowering required procODT by around 30-35% which should technically improve the OC ~ right ?

Well kinda,
A great addition was for sure the "borrowed for 4th gen, FIT functionality and Precision Boost" featureset
We got also a "real AVX2" working featureset, not a split one which caused issues and bottlenecks on non supporting programs
But the real change we saw from 2nd to 3rd gen, was just the improved signal integrity part
~ which lead to an increase of 50-100ish Mhz from IMC side of things,
pushing it towards 1930-1950Mhz, from the old 1867-1900mhz on 2nd gen
This signal integrity change did indeed help quite a bit with taxing sticks like Hynix MFR and Dual Rank Samsung B/D dies
But there was barely a big improvement that was made between both generations ~ in the sense of potential OC
~ for normal users tho the real world performance difference was feel-able thanks to PB and the "better memory compatibility"

The biggest change that made a significant upgrade from 2nd to 3rd gen was
~ precision boost & FIT voltage regulation in 5-10ms, preventing degradation on a smaller node (which will help for >4th gen)
~ the shown proof of concept 7nm design under far lower powerdraw / well done improvement for Perf per Watt, but only till around 4ghz on current sillicon design

Next to not having 2+2 7nm CCDs, lowering IPC on Single CCD systems, with still a bottlenecking IMC for that potential memory OC capabale running platform
Which doesn't let me see anything under the 3900X as real upgrade on the IPC side of things
And only >3900X the difference is marginal ~ from the IPC improvement side of things,
when optimizing both platforms to their architectural max they could run
3rd gen on it's own from my viewpoint was a disruptive upgrade to show potential Ryzen Tech under 7nm
what it can potentially deliver under very low powerdraw - but anything running over 4Ghz does skyrocket in required voltage
And even when this generation tries to be a powerhungry performant one (looking at the 2700) ~ it has "new architectural node" flaws, making it a clear winner on perf per watt, but not a winner on architectural limits performance

Aside from the chip "clock" which is halfway irrelevant if IPC can be significantly boosted
3rd gen's flaw, preventing it to be a huge upgrade is also the borrowed IMC
It needed an upgrade, not a time skipping fix ~ giving us on the number side of things a big upgrade (MCLK) but in reality and the IPC side of things (InterCore-Bandwith & Latency) barely even moving the rock that 12nm was

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Last edited by Veii; 02-04-2020 at 04:39 AM. Reason: mistake on 3rd gen optimisation / >4ghz means huge jumps in voltage
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post #47 of 49 (permalink) Old 02-04-2020, 02:06 AM
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The 3600 has roughly 15% higher single threaded performance over the 1600 clock for clock in synthetic benchmarks but it doesn't always translate in games. In some games its a reasonable 10-20% performance upgrade, in most its nothing to 5%. Wait for 4th gen this year.

I only upgraded from a 1600 to a 3700X for the hell of it, it's not necessarily "worth it" for gaming.

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post #48 of 49 (permalink) Old 02-04-2020, 02:18 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by NightShade00013 View Post
I game with the system and process video's on it as well so the shortened time of processing will come in handy. This system will probably be the last one I do for a while. My wife passed away last year and with a little bit of the insurance policy money I built this system and upgraded from an fx8350 that was honestly a very hot slug. The 1600 honestly has ran great so far but like I said this will be the last one for a long while so the plan was always to grab something like the 3900X so it should be viable for a while no matter what I am doing.

I know that I may not get the OC out of it that I am currently getting out of the 1600 but the sheer doubling of the physical cores and threads will more than compensate for that. I figured selling the 1600 for around 80 or so would put the total cost of upgrade at just over 400 with tax and I have it available. The 1600 was a clear win in the silicon lottery though, this is the old 14NM version and not the AF and overclocked like a dream.

I guess in some ways I am just trying to decide what is the right thing to do. Wait for a potentially better cpu or buy now.
Quote: Originally Posted by chaosblade02 View Post
I couldn't even get 3200 CL 14 to run stable on this chip. I know 3466 won't work. I might run on some 1600x chips, just not mine. It also won't run 4ghz stable, 3.95 is about the max, but I settled on 3.9 because I can run that and keep it cool on a cooler master 212+ turbo. 3.9 will run stable on 1.3v, and I need 1.42v to keep 3.95 stable, and that's a big increase in temps for 50mhz. Some 1600x chips might run 4ghz @ 1.35v, but mine won't.

2966 is as high as I can run ram on this chip, any higher won't even post.

I probably got a below-average chip.
Might i help, if you are free today ?

NightShade [Part 2/2]
Running 4.1Ghz on this puppy is indeed amazing
But frequency is not everything really~
The issue with both ryzen generations was the Architectural Design , where everything over 72nm in memory Latency (Aida64 measured) did result in an instruction set/communication choke
It was clearly noticable under the Witcher & Bloodborn Games resulting in momentary full frame freezes
On 2nd gen AMD helped it a bit, but it was no architectural upgrade - but a low level tweak
(thanks goes out to the early CH6 Team ~ who ever found this out & started to design PBO OC Profiles & PerformanceEnchancer presets)
These presets improved IPC by a big chunk (working on L1&L3 access time) , tho increasing memory latency by a tiny tiny bit)
~ which made 2nd gen only 1-2% faster in IPC than 1st gen ~ instead the old i think it was 10-12% uplift

1st gen Overclockers shouldn't focus on CCD Clock, as we still have a big issue with bad signal integrity
The biggest IPC change does lowering frequency, lowering procODT as much as possible, fixing CLD0_VDDP voltage
(Memory Hole ~ source 1usmus)
And so hitting under 70ns latency, or around <60ns intercore latency
Only then your OC starts to matter at all ~ else you can run 3.7 - 4.1ish , you barely will see any perf gains, as you're choked on the most fundamental thing
The memory controller and L3 Cache

May i ask about what cinebench R15 scores you are hitting on 4ghz or higher ?
Over 1800cb ?
4.1 should technically hit around 1850-1880cb
I was around 1776cb @ 3.8 the last time i checked,
before fixing my ram a bit better under 3467MT/s C14 Flat tRDRD/tWRWR SCL 2 instead of 3

But that aside,
Your 1600 has a fundamental value !
A cpu is changeable, but memory should not be sold~
You rly shouldn't sell such important thing for any kind of money
It's not a slow CPU at all, it's on stock just a bit mediocre at best ^^'

You would benefit from the true AVX2 instruction set on 3rd gen
But as you require render performance ~ better wait for 4th gen
This current generation is not focused on performance, but on getting the fundamentals correct with low powerdraw
TR4 on one hand can be seen as a big improvement, as you aren't seeing negative scaling over 3800MT/s = 1900mhz IMC clock
But Ryzen Consumer, doesn't behave that way

Better wait for 4th generation, when we start to see performance finetuned 7nm chips, not powerdraw focused
Also Micron who will sample DDR5 , gave out Q2/Q3 2021 as launch date for DDR5
Unless AMD made a mistake on the AM4 socket pinnout, which nees a X670 change for 4th gen
The chance to need any upgrade over X370/X570 is close to non existent
* Big navi might benefit from it, or multi gpu setups under the new way of tile rendering mode (crossfire included)**
** but even that is future tech, soo don't worry all to much on AM5

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post #49 of 49 (permalink) Old 02-04-2020, 02:29 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Lexi is Dumb View Post
The 3600 has roughly 15% higher single threaded performance over the 1600 clock for clock in synthetic benchmarks but it doesn't always translate in games. In some games its a reasonable 10-20% performance upgrade, in most its nothing to 5%. Wait for 4th gen this year.



I only upgraded from a 1600 to a 3700X for the hell of it, it's not necessarily "worth it" for gaming.
Idk if you using a top RAM kit. But if you have top RAM with top OC on it, there's barely any difference in gaming.

I'm using a 2600 4.1ghz, with 3200 cl14-14-14-14-26-256, and getting pretty much same level of performance as third gen ryzen with 3733+3800 cl16. My brother with 1800x at 3.9ghz and same RAM profile like mine, it's getting identical performance to mine.

Talking gaming, exclusively.

There are some exceptions, but very few.

Last edited by Shenhua; 02-04-2020 at 06:44 AM.
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