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post #41 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-11-2013, 09:06 AM
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I'm a CS and CE double major, I don't see how that means I should blind myself to the fact that there is simply no reason for forcing higher math on programmers.

As for "who said that everything they teach in college must be of practical nature?", who says people should be forced to pay money and take time learning irrelevant information that will ultimately do nothing other than make them pay less attention to the information that actually matters in their lives? Just because that is how the system currently is, doesn't mean it SHOULD be this way.

That's a very short-sighted approach. When do you stop?

Why even bother getting a CS or CE degree? Just go to vocational school or take a course to learn "Java" or "C++".

Actually, you may not even need all the features of a language.... so as a programmer why learn languages?

Just go take a philosophy class in Logic.


There's difference among "someone who can write a program", a "progammer", and a "good programmer". It's not just about knowledge of a language that makes a good programmer.


Here's a dirty little secret..... most of the information that you learn in college is out-of-date, a subset of a bigger world, or just irrelevant to work. However, college does train you to think and exposes you to different concepts. That's what college is really for. Generally, you learn real-world skills in the real-world at a job.


Personally, I have dual degrees in CE and Economics. My understand of economics absolutely gives me an edge that I apply to software development, hardware purchases, and system architecture.

To answer most of your questions: (1) a fridge cannot cool a PC (2) 64-bit OS for over 3.4GB (3) If a PCIe card fits, it should work (4) Resolution, not screen size (5) Report, not respond to Spam (6) Single-Rail/Non-Modular PSUs are not always better than Multi-Rail/Modular (7) Sequential does not matter as much as random for OS drives (8) Requirements come before hardware for servers



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post #42 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-11-2013, 11:20 AM
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What DH just said...

Lots of people have the misconception that going to college and getting a degree makes them "professionals" in their field...

In reality; having a degree only makes you "trainable" so that whatever company that decides it would be worth their time/money investment in you can turn you into said "professional".

There is a lot more to Math than just "math", but then again; I'm biased since I love the stuff and would happily do math every day for the rest of my life... oh wait... I already do that. smile.gif
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post #43 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-11-2013, 11:32 AM
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hahhahahaaha, I have two friends who switched from engineering to business because they couldn't handle all the math.

I have a friend who did that as well (Although biomedical engineering isn't necessarily easy stuff O_O ). Although as a Computer Engineering major all of the physics classes and math classes I'm taking/have taken all feel vital to the overall set of skills needed to understand what you're doing and what you're trying to accomplish and on top of that with the right professor the hands on math and physics are quite fun ^_^.

-> Take this with a grain of salt though, I find it necessary to take a class on quantum mechanics cause I think it'll help me if things go the way of the qubit so perhaps I'm not necessarily the best person to give advice. rolleyes.gif

I tried to put my big endian in her little endian but things got flipped up along the way


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post #44 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-11-2013, 11:41 AM
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Honestly, I was really upset with the fact that my my university required the calculus series in order to complete a CSE degree. I don't think that calculus is used rarely if at all in programming. CS is more logical thinking and problem solving than integrals and derivatives. I'm not saying that calculus as a subject has no relevance to computers I just don't think it really is necessary to know in order to be a proficient programmer. Programming requires abstract problem solving and astute analytical debugging way more than it does any understanding of calculus. Lots of the programs that I had to write in my introductory programming courses had a lot of math but it was always directly tied to the code we were writing and usually only involved the manipulation of certain variables in an algebraic sense and using certain variables in the context of the program to solve a problem. Rarely if ever will you come up with a computational problem that absolutely cannot be solved through programming in a more concise, efficient, or abstract way. Lots of date related computational errors in program can all be solved with writing extra code in order to handle these specific cases. It does have a lot of math mixed into it, but it rarely if ever even goes past trigonometric mathematics.



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post #45 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-11-2013, 12:14 PM
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Honestly, I was really upset with the fact that my my university required the calculus series in order to complete a CSE degree. I don't think that calculus is used rarely if at all in programming. CS is more logical thinking and problem solving than integrals and derivatives. I'm not saying that calculus as a subject has no relevance to computers I just don't think it really is necessary to know in order to be a proficient programmer. Programming requires abstract problem solving and astute analytical debugging way more than it does any understanding of calculus. Lots of the programs that I had to write in my introductory programming courses had a lot of math but it was always directly tied to the code we were writing and usually only involved the manipulation of certain variables in an algebraic sense and using certain variables in the context of the program to solve a problem. Rarely if ever will you come up with a computational problem that absolutely cannot be solved through programming in a more concise, efficient, or abstract way. Lots of date related computational errors in program can all be solved with writing extra code in order to handle these specific cases. It does have a lot of math mixed into it, but it rarely if ever even goes past trigonometric mathematics.

Digital Signal Processing requires calculus and differential equations.
Cryptography requires higher level math.

To answer most of your questions: (1) a fridge cannot cool a PC (2) 64-bit OS for over 3.4GB (3) If a PCIe card fits, it should work (4) Resolution, not screen size (5) Report, not respond to Spam (6) Single-Rail/Non-Modular PSUs are not always better than Multi-Rail/Modular (7) Sequential does not matter as much as random for OS drives (8) Requirements come before hardware for servers



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post #46 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-11-2013, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by xXSebaSXx View Post

What DH just said...

Lots of people have the misconception that going to college and getting a degree makes them "professionals" in their field...

In reality; having a degree only makes you "trainable" so that whatever company that decides it would be worth their time/money investment in you can turn you into said "professional".

There is a lot more to Math than just "math", but then again; I'm biased since I love the stuff and would happily do math every day for the rest of my life... oh wait... I already do that. smile.gif

My sister is getting her Mechanical Engineering degree in the spring, and I really liked how they title engineers coming out of college. She took a test that is basically an "endorsement" of sorts, and on her resume she can now put "Engineer in Training."

You are absolutely right; there are people that will sit around waiving their degree in people's faces as proof that they know what they are talking about, when in reality knowledge is most often obtained in experience.

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The Dalai Lama, when asked what surprised him most about humanity, answered, “Man. Because he sacrifices his health in order to make money. Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his health. And then he is so anxious about the future that he does not enjoy the present; the result being that he does not live in the present or the future; he lives as if he is never going to die, and then dies having never really lived.”


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post #47 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-11-2013, 10:01 PM
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10 year business experience programmer here. 1 year college. If I were to go back to college it would be for economics or cs. My CIO mentioned that he was most impressed with programmers with engineering or economic degrees. The experience means a lot from just exposure to concepts and having to figure things out.
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post #48 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-11-2013, 10:16 PM
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My CIO mentioned that he was most impressed with programmers with engineering or economic degrees.

I have both... you hiring? smile.gif

To answer most of your questions: (1) a fridge cannot cool a PC (2) 64-bit OS for over 3.4GB (3) If a PCIe card fits, it should work (4) Resolution, not screen size (5) Report, not respond to Spam (6) Single-Rail/Non-Modular PSUs are not always better than Multi-Rail/Modular (7) Sequential does not matter as much as random for OS drives (8) Requirements come before hardware for servers



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post #49 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-11-2013, 10:35 PM
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My sister is getting her Mechanical Engineering degree in the spring, and I really liked how they title engineers coming out of college. She took a test that is basically an "endorsement" of sorts, and on her resume she can now put "Engineer in Training."

You are absolutely right; there are people that will sit around waiving their degree in people's faces as proof that they know what they are talking about, when in reality knowledge is most often obtained in experience.

The EIT isn't so much an endorsement as a requirement in the States. Really around the world engineers are held to meeting certain requirements. The NCEES exams along with licensure assure people aren't building structures or designing things that will fall apart or cause harm.

As far as calculus being used in programming; well as mentioned several times already it is entirely dependent on what you are doing. It isn't necessary. In fact nothing is necessary because everything in programming can be learned through books and online forums. As DuckieHo has said though there are differences between someone who can program, a programmer, and a great programmer.

There are times when that knowledge is very useful. I model physical systems daily. That is nothing but advanced mathematics that couldn't be done without calculus, advanced physics, discrete math, etc... Before doing this I worked on database structures feeding into Monte Carlo simulations for investment returns which needed a small bit of calculus. At the same building a differential GPS system from scratch required quite a bit of calculus.

Now all that said. If you want to limit yourself then no of course nothing is necessary. I can say after a BS in CS, BS in EnvSci, MS in Eng, Current Ph.D in Hydrology, being a EIT, SIT, GISP along with a few more fairly useless initials that one should never limit themselves. Plus nearly anything is fun if you find a way to make it useful, which with programming is fairly easy in my opinion.


Edit: By the way I consider myself an expert in nothing merely a beginner of many things. Experience is still key to all things.

headscratch.gif Do us all a favor. Do not confuse your opinion with facts.proof.gif


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post #50 of 68 (permalink) Old 01-11-2013, 11:22 PM
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I have both... you hiring? smile.gif

haha you bastard! that explains everything!
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