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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-06-2019, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
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High end memory kit - Overclock scaling?

Hi
I am working on a stable 24/7 memory clock. I bought a high end Trident Z 4000c17 17 17 37 2T kit (2x8gb). I had high expectations that i could either push frequency much higher or timings a good bit lower. So far not having a great deal of luck. I presume its samsung Bdie

Im using memtest86 version 8.1 boot from USB in bios which seems to be the most accurate and recommended way of finding errors. Memtest64 in windows does not. Aida 64 benchmark doesnt either.

Ive managed to get 4000mhz c16 16 16 37 2T no errors. i set Dram to 1.49v as im happy to run that daily. VCCCIO and VCCSA to 1.27v.

I can boot windows and run games and stress tests fine with 4133 c16 16 16 36 but memtest86 finds errors so doesnt seem like it would be a good daily clock.

I have tried pushing 4200mhz and over but cant seem to get a boot. even up to ridiculous timings eg 20 20 20 40 2T. Is this just the limit of my memory controller?

Any tips to help me get either higher frequency or lower timings?

Cpu: 9900k 5ghz all core
MB: Maximus XI formula
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-06-2019, 05:23 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Jaz11 View Post
Hi
I am working on a stable 24/7 memory clock. I bought a high end Trident Z 4000c17 17 17 37 2T kit (2x8gb). I had high expectations that i could either push frequency much higher or timings a good bit lower. So far not having a great deal of luck. I presume its samsung Bdie

Im using memtest86 version 8.1 boot from USB in bios which seems to be the most accurate and recommended way of finding errors. Memtest64 in windows does not. Aida 64 benchmark doesnt either.

Ive managed to get 4000mhz c16 16 16 37 2T no errors. i set Dram to 1.49v as im happy to run that daily. VCCCIO and VCCSA to 1.27v.

I can boot windows and run games and stress tests fine with 4133 c16 16 16 36 but memtest86 finds errors so doesnt seem like it would be a good daily clock.

I have tried pushing 4200mhz and over but cant seem to get a boot. even up to ridiculous timings eg 20 20 20 40 2T. Is this just the limit of my memory controller?

Any tips to help me get either higher frequency or lower timings?

Cpu: 9900k 5ghz all core
MB: Maximus XI formula
I have Samsung B-die TridentZ 2x8 sticks (XMP rated for [email protected]) on a ASRock Z390 Taichi with i7-9700k. I can do [email protected] with very tight secondary and tertiary timings at DRAMV 1.45V and VCCIO and VCCSA at 1.18V. I can do [email protected] at DRAMV 1.50V and VCCIO and VCCSA at 1.25V.

Both configurations are stable with RAMTest to 20,000% (which is an overnight memory test) and with PassMark's MemTest86 (booted from USB) for 8 passes, all tests, all CPUs (not running in parallel). It was definitely harder to get stability at 4133 than at 4000 and, in fact, my AIDA64 memory benchmark numbers are better at 4000 so that's where I'm running for 24/7. I could not find any configuration that would boot at 4200. I suspect it might run at 4200, but the motherboard doesn't train properly at 4200 to get things started (it has a hard time training at 4133 too). I may try again sometime with more manual settings (just for fun).

Going above the XMP rating on your sticks is just silicon lottery and your motherboard's ability to figure out secondary and tertiary timings that will work. Sometimes you can go way above what the sticks are rated at and sometimes only a bit higher - it all depends upon what sort of chips you got. With memory sticks, it only takes one memory chip out of all the ones on a stick that's holding things back to hold the whole set back. You can nearly always improve benchmark numbers by tightening secondary and tertiary timings, but that is a real time sink activity because you've got to run long stability tests over and over again to find how far you can go on each of the important timing numbers.

[email protected] (-1 AVX offset) on ASRock Z390 Taichi with Noctua NH-D15 air cooler
CPU offset voltage of -25mv, runs VRVout 1.240-1.313V on full AVX load, 1.225-1.275V on non-AVX load
2x8GB [email protected] at 1.45V, G.Skill F4-3733C17Q-32GTZKK (XMP rated [email protected])
EVGA GTX 1060 6GB OC with Corsair RMx 750W power supply
Samsung 970 EVO 500GB NVMe boot SSD and four other drives all in a Fractal Design R6 Case
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-06-2019, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by jfriend00 View Post
Quote: Originally Posted by Jaz11 View Post
Hi
I am working on a stable 24/7 memory clock. I bought a high end Trident Z 4000c17 17 17 37 2T kit (2x8gb). I had high expectations that i could either push frequency much higher or timings a good bit lower. So far not having a great deal of luck. I presume its samsung Bdie

Im using memtest86 version 8.1 boot from USB in bios which seems to be the most accurate and recommended way of finding errors. Memtest64 in windows does not. Aida 64 benchmark doesnt either.

Ive managed to get 4000mhz c16 16 16 37 2T no errors. i set Dram to 1.49v as im happy to run that daily. VCCCIO and VCCSA to 1.27v.

I can boot windows and run games and stress tests fine with 4133 c16 16 16 36 but memtest86 finds errors so doesnt seem like it would be a good daily clock.

I have tried pushing 4200mhz and over but cant seem to get a boot. even up to ridiculous timings eg 20 20 20 40 2T. Is this just the limit of my memory controller?

Any tips to help me get either higher frequency or lower timings?

Cpu: 9900k 5ghz all core
MB: Maximus XI formula
I have Samsung B-die TridentZ 2x8 sticks (XMP rated for [email protected]) on a ASRock Z390 Taichi with i7-9700k. I can do [email protected] with very tight secondary and tertiary timings at DRAMV 1.45V and VCCIO and VCCSA at 1.18V. I can do [email protected] at DRAMV 1.50V and VCCIO and VCCSA at 1.25V.

Both configurations are stable with RAMTest to 20,000% (which is an overnight memory test) and with PassMark's MemTest86 (booted from USB) for 8 passes, all tests, all CPUs (not running in parallel). It was definitely harder to get stability at 4133 than at 4000 and, in fact, my AIDA64 memory benchmark numbers are better at 4000 so that's where I'm running for 24/7. I could not find any configuration that would boot at 4200. I suspect it might run at 4200, but the motherboard doesn't train properly at 4200 to get things started (it has a hard time training at 4133 too). I may try again sometime with more manual settings (just for fun).

Going above the XMP rating on your sticks is just silicon lottery and your motherboard's ability to figure out secondary and tertiary timings that will work. Sometimes you can go way above what the sticks are rated at and sometimes only a bit higher - it all depends upon what sort of chips you got. With memory sticks, it only takes one memory chip out of all the ones on a stick that's holding things back to hold the whole set back. You can nearly always improve benchmark numbers by tightening secondary and tertiary timings, but that is a real time sink activity because you've got to run long stability tests over and over again to find how far you can go on each of the important timing numbers.
Thanks for the info. Make a me feel a bit better you are stuck around the same numbers as me.
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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-07-2019, 01:50 PM
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I believe it is mostly a motherboard limit. On top of this there is a silicon lottery among b-die chips (and this particular kit you got is known to be petty good).
You are at limits for daily of both vdimm, vccio and vssa, so I would eventually play only with subtimings to squeeze a little more in benchmarks and 0,something% in real world applications then call it a day

new rig 2019:
Intel 9900k >5ghz | Asus Maximus XI Gene | Eisbaer 360 LT (custom loop in progress) | bequiet! Dark Base 700 white edition | Team group Nighthawk 16GB 4000mhz | MSI RTX 2070 Armor | Storage: Intel Optane 900p 280GB + Samsung 970 evo plus 1TB + WD Red 3TB | Corsair HX850i | Benq BL3200PT 1440p | 1Gbit ftth |
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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-07-2019, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by Telstar View Post
I believe it is mostly a motherboard limit. On top of this there is a silicon lottery among b-die chips (and this particular kit you got is known to be petty good).
You are at limits for daily of both vdimm, vccio and vssa, so I would eventually play only with subtimings to squeeze a little more in benchmarks and 0,something% in real world applications then call it a day [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]
Ok thanks. Yeh I think I will tighten trefi and tras and leave it at that for daily
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-09-2019, 03:18 AM
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It's not about the limit of the memory controller here. Asus's advertised 4400MHz+ memory on 4 DIMM Maximus boards refer to a QVL entry with all 4 DIMM slots populated since these boards are on the T topology where 4 DIMMs will clock better than 2.

I do recall 4133MHz being the end of potential frequency scaling on these on 2 sticks.

MSI's Z390 boards are running daisy chain topology however, you'd have better 2 DIMM clocking headroom on those.

Nano 1.1
(17 items)
Z370 Prep
(6 items)
Nano 1.0
(12 items)
CPU
8700K 5300MHz
Motherboard
ASRock Z390 Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac
Motherboard
ASRock Z370 Fatal1ty Gaming-ITX/ac
GPU
1080 Ti
RAM
TridentZ 8GBx2 [email protected]
Hard Drive
970 EVO 2TB
Hard Drive
970 PRO 1TB
Power Supply
EVGA 750W G3
Cooling
AquaComputer
Cooling
HardwareLabs
Cooling
Bitspower
Cooling
EKWB
Case
Fractal Design Nano S
Operating System
Windows 10 Pro 64-Bit | Mint 18.3 | High Sierra 10.13.4
Monitor
Dell Alienware AW3418DW
Keyboard
ThinkPad Compact USB Keyboard with TrackPoint
Mouse
TrackPoint/UltraNav
CPU
8700K 5300MHz
Motherboard
ASUS Maximus X Hero
GPU
UHD 630 (HDMI)
RAM
TridentZ (Black/White) C14
Hard Drive
HGST TravelStar
Cooling
Cryorig R1 Universal
CPU
7700K
Motherboard
ASUS Maximus VIII Impact
GPU
GTX 1070
RAM
G.SKILL Trident Z 16GB
Hard Drive
960 Pro 512GB
Power Supply
EVGA 550W P2
Cooling
AquaComputer
Cooling
HardwareLabs
Cooling
Bitspower
Cooling
EKWB
Case
Fractal Design Nano S
Operating System
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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-09-2019, 07:29 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by encrypted11 View Post
It's not about the limit of the memory controller here.
With "limits" I meant to not ruin the cpu. Personally, I wouldnt go above 1,25 for long term use.
It has been said several times that 9xxx cpu have a great IMC and the limits are either the mainboard or the dam dies themselves.

new rig 2019:
Intel 9900k >5ghz | Asus Maximus XI Gene | Eisbaer 360 LT (custom loop in progress) | bequiet! Dark Base 700 white edition | Team group Nighthawk 16GB 4000mhz | MSI RTX 2070 Armor | Storage: Intel Optane 900p 280GB + Samsung 970 evo plus 1TB + WD Red 3TB | Corsair HX850i | Benq BL3200PT 1440p | 1Gbit ftth |
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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-09-2019, 09:02 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by encrypted11 View Post
It's not about the limit of the memory controller here. Asus's advertised 4400MHz+ memory on 4 DIMM Maximus boards refer to a QVL entry with all 4 DIMM slots populated since these boards are on the T topology where 4 DIMMs will clock better than 2.

I do recall 4133MHz being the end of potential frequency scaling on these on 2 sticks.

MSI's Z390 boards are running daisy chain topology however, you'd have better 2 DIMM clocking headroom on those.
T-Topology does not mean that it will clock 4 sticks better than 2. It means it may clock 4 sticks better than a daisy chain motherboard will clock 4 sticks and in fact, it may not clock 2 sticks as well as a daisy-chain board will clock 2 sticks.

That's the idea behind T-topology, but I've also read a number of very technical articles that tout how daisy-chain can be tweaked (with timings) to be better for 2 sticks and just as good for 4 sticks vs. t-topology so some articles say it is more about the actual details of the implementation than it is about which topology is chosen.

[email protected] (-1 AVX offset) on ASRock Z390 Taichi with Noctua NH-D15 air cooler
CPU offset voltage of -25mv, runs VRVout 1.240-1.313V on full AVX load, 1.225-1.275V on non-AVX load
2x8GB [email protected] at 1.45V, G.Skill F4-3733C17Q-32GTZKK (XMP rated [email protected])
EVGA GTX 1060 6GB OC with Corsair RMx 750W power supply
Samsung 970 EVO 500GB NVMe boot SSD and four other drives all in a Fractal Design R6 Case
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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-09-2019, 09:38 AM
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Double.

Nano 1.1
(17 items)
Z370 Prep
(6 items)
Nano 1.0
(12 items)
CPU
8700K 5300MHz
Motherboard
ASRock Z390 Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac
Motherboard
ASRock Z370 Fatal1ty Gaming-ITX/ac
GPU
1080 Ti
RAM
TridentZ 8GBx2 [email protected]
Hard Drive
970 EVO 2TB
Hard Drive
970 PRO 1TB
Power Supply
EVGA 750W G3
Cooling
AquaComputer
Cooling
HardwareLabs
Cooling
Bitspower
Cooling
EKWB
Case
Fractal Design Nano S
Operating System
Windows 10 Pro 64-Bit | Mint 18.3 | High Sierra 10.13.4
Monitor
Dell Alienware AW3418DW
Keyboard
ThinkPad Compact USB Keyboard with TrackPoint
Mouse
TrackPoint/UltraNav
CPU
8700K 5300MHz
Motherboard
ASUS Maximus X Hero
GPU
UHD 630 (HDMI)
RAM
TridentZ (Black/White) C14
Hard Drive
HGST TravelStar
Cooling
Cryorig R1 Universal
CPU
7700K
Motherboard
ASUS Maximus VIII Impact
GPU
GTX 1070
RAM
G.SKILL Trident Z 16GB
Hard Drive
960 Pro 512GB
Power Supply
EVGA 550W P2
Cooling
AquaComputer
Cooling
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Cooling
Bitspower
Cooling
EKWB
Case
Fractal Design Nano S
Operating System
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 02-09-2019, 09:39 AM
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From [email protected], ASUS Engineer Bing L. and MSI's Toppc Lin
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...y-memory-treat

3:00 onwards

Nano 1.1
(17 items)
Z370 Prep
(6 items)
Nano 1.0
(12 items)
CPU
8700K 5300MHz
Motherboard
ASRock Z390 Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac
Motherboard
ASRock Z370 Fatal1ty Gaming-ITX/ac
GPU
1080 Ti
RAM
TridentZ 8GBx2 [email protected]
Hard Drive
970 EVO 2TB
Hard Drive
970 PRO 1TB
Power Supply
EVGA 750W G3
Cooling
AquaComputer
Cooling
HardwareLabs
Cooling
Bitspower
Cooling
EKWB
Case
Fractal Design Nano S
Operating System
Windows 10 Pro 64-Bit | Mint 18.3 | High Sierra 10.13.4
Monitor
Dell Alienware AW3418DW
Keyboard
ThinkPad Compact USB Keyboard with TrackPoint
Mouse
TrackPoint/UltraNav
CPU
8700K 5300MHz
Motherboard
ASUS Maximus X Hero
GPU
UHD 630 (HDMI)
RAM
TridentZ (Black/White) C14
Hard Drive
HGST TravelStar
Cooling
Cryorig R1 Universal
CPU
7700K
Motherboard
ASUS Maximus VIII Impact
GPU
GTX 1070
RAM
G.SKILL Trident Z 16GB
Hard Drive
960 Pro 512GB
Power Supply
EVGA 550W P2
Cooling
AquaComputer
Cooling
HardwareLabs
Cooling
Bitspower
Cooling
EKWB
Case
Fractal Design Nano S
Operating System
Windows 10 Pro 64-Bit
▲ hide details ▲

Last edited by encrypted11; 02-09-2019 at 09:46 AM.
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