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post #11 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-04-2019, 01:52 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by DeyEatDaPooPoo View Post
I bought a 2x8GB kit of Patriot Viper Steel Series rated for 3866MHz CL18 that is supposed to be Hynix DJR--Patriot are shady AF and rebrand their memory chips--and had an absolutely terrible experience with it. Due to 2nd gen not having the best IMC and knowing you get more on Ryzen going with 3466 or 3600 with tighter timings anyway that's the mentality I went into it with, especially after seeing Buildzoid's video on them. After I unboxed them I first wanted to test the waters and I got them to train and boot at up to 3733 with the 3866 XMP timings, but minute you did anything remotely intensive like open a dozen Firefox tabs or start MemTest dozens of errors and a BSOD, so I got them as loose as reasonable. Even at 3600 CL20-23-23-23- significantly less errors but still not stable until they eventually caused a BSOD so I started working my way down on frequency.

It wasn't until I got down to 3266MHz I could achieve decent timings and get it to be 100% stable, but even then 3200 ended up working best because you could get timings a lot tighter and was what I ended up going with. I'm gonna return them in a little bit. I know it isn't the board or CPU because the issue wasn't that they weren't POSTing: board was training fine, and I can get a kit of 3200 CL16 bin Hynix MFR to work fine at XMP and tighten the timings a little bit despite MFR being, by far, the least friendly and crappiest IC you can get for Ryzen but I digress. Best I could get out of 'em isn't a significant amount better vs MFR, and after tuning a 2x16GB kit I got a couple days ago (one in sig) using new Samsung M-Die 16Gb IC I was able to get performance to near-parity with this stuff while having 2x the amount of RAM and it being only $13 more expensive--$80 vs $93, though I ended up paying $74 for the 32GB kit after some discounts, so they actually ended up costing me less.

TL;DR: probably not best to get this IC if you have 1st or 2nd gen Ryzen. If you want the best value for money best to go with Micron Rev. E, or the new Samsung M-Die if you want 32GB for cheap. This stuff is excellent for 3rd gen Ryzen or Intel, though.

or just B-Die

https://benzhaomin.github.io/bdiefinder/

it's still plenty available.

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post #12 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-04-2019, 03:00 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by The Pook View Post
or just B-Die

https://benzhaomin.github.io/bdiefinder/

it's still plenty available.
The info on there is outdated unfortunately. I knew about that site and that's where I looked up the part number initially. I also looked at different more recent forum posts and reviews and everyone was reporting they were getting Hynix instead of B-Die. Last report I found of someone getting B-Die was from almost a year ago. They've since switched to Hynix, and that is what mine is, which makes sense given the price of 'em went from $120 on sale a couple months ago to always under $100 3 months ago and $80 since a month ago. They rebrand them and still report to the UEFI and Thaiphoon Burner as being Hynix but don't report the type of IC, but it can't be anything other than DJR since CJR has now being replaced by it and MFR can't clock anywhere near that high plus they don't tune the same as CJR, not to mention most I know with CJR are able to get 3600MHz CL16 out of them with a 2700X and a B450 board. You're not going to get B-Die rated for 3866 at $80, obviously. Below is the most that could be squeezed out of them with my new 2700X and the info reported by Thaiphoon Burner.

Anyway, this IC seems to suck majorly for Ryzen 1st and 2nd gen and you should avoid them if that's what you have. For 3rd gen and Intel they work great for the money, tho.

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post #13 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-04-2019, 04:09 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by globalthinker View Post
I have them, they are somewhat tricky so far. They don't really match up timing-wise with CJR.

Only paid 2400 SEK for them, about $250. 32 GB B-die kits are hard to find or 50-100% more expensive.

This is the gear I have:
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- MSI X470 Gaming Pro Carbon
- Ryzen 3900x

They want tWR of at least 22 and tFAW of at least 42 or training will fail. DRAM Calculator suggests tWR 12 and tFAW 35 for CJR V1 which does not work and requires a clear of CMOS on mine.
procODT 40 Ohm seems better than 48 - 60.
Gear Down Mode enabled seems to work best, a bit higher latency but easier to stabalize.

They are stable with the settings in the Ryzen Master screenshot in memtest, ran up to 2000%.

To me b-die seems too expensive for the performance difference at this time. Hope they can be tweaked further.

That FAW is crazy high... I'm used to running mine at 16-24 depending on clock. tWR is high too.

How is tRFC on these?

If anyone wants the secret B-Die kit: https://www.amazon.com/G-SKILL-Flare...flarw+x&sr=8-1

Check the reviews out: guaranteed B-Die. I'll post my Thaiphoon if anyone is curious. They're only 3200 c14, cas 8.7ns according to Thaiphoon, but my particular kit is amazing. I've come across two other posters here with Ryzen 3k builds and they got similar results. I've run them at 3600/1800 14-14-14-14-30-48 with FAW 16 and tRFC 288, but generally run them at the specs in my sig, FAW 24, tRFC 304. With more volts (1.5) they'll do 3800 at those primaries and FAW 16.

Ive seen many posters in the DRAM Calc thread who bought TridentZ Neo 3600 c16, and got Hynix instead of Bdie, and the Bdies in them seem to be slightly different than the ones in Flare X, despite some people saying 3200 c14 and 3600 c16 Bdie are the same. I'm not sure how true this is because Ive helped like 15 people with Bdie + Ryzen 3k OC their memory now, and a lot of people with TridentZ Neo 3600 cant do XMP and one was stuck at 3466- this could be board difference though, i.e. T-Topology vs Daisy Chain, or chipset difference.

Ive run mine at 4066/1866 c16- some really nice bandwidth and 70ns latency. In a CPU bound gaming test (Heaven 4.0), I got slightly less fps this way though. Expected. (It was 278 fps vs 285 fps @ 3800/1900 synchronous with the cards clocked as per sig. Let them cool off fully with system off between runs too and controlled for ambient.) Anyway, $119 for this kind of performance is amazing. Runs 13 mem dividers higher than what its binned for. Best memory kit Ive ever owned, even better than Samsung "Miracle RAM" DDR3 from back in the day...

I'd love to see how these are on Zen 1. I'd think they'd do 3200 at very low secondary and tertiaries, and possibly 3466 14-14-14-14-30-44 or something close...

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post #14 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-04-2019, 04:44 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by DeyEatDaPooPoo View Post
The info on there is outdated unfortunately. I knew about that site and that's where I looked up the part number initially. I also looked at different more recent forum posts and reviews and everyone was reporting they were getting Hynix instead of B-Die. Last report I found of someone getting B-Die was from almost a year ago. [/url]



I bought a second 16GB kit of RAM to bring my rig up to 32GB and I had 0 issues getting B-Die, lol. I bought it 6/23, and bought the first kit 3/2.



B-Die

B-Die

B-Die

B-Die

B-Die

maybe B-Die? I've seen 3600 15-15-15 B-Die but I've never seen 3600 14-15-15

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post #15 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-04-2019, 07:19 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by The Pook View Post


I bought a second 16GB kit of RAM to bring my rig up to 32GB and I had 0 issues getting B-Die, lol. I bought it 6/23, and bought the first kit 3/2.



B-Die

B-Die

B-Die

B-Die

B-Die

maybe B-Die? I've seen 3600 15-15-15 B-Die but I've never seen 3600 14-15-15
I uh... think we got what we're discussing mixed up. My post I'm referring to Patriot Viper Steel Series rated for 3866MHz CL18 which uses Hynix DJR. I never said or meant to say Samsung B-Die isn't available nor a choice. What I said is that it is no longer available in the 3866MHz bin of Viper Steel Series, which it isn't. It is definitely available and I know that. I was considering upgrading to it by getting the 4133MHz bin of the same series which is confirmed B-Die for $100 but I decided against it because unless you're gaming competitively at 1440p 144Hz or 1080p 240Hz the value for money just isn't there IMO since it means you're setting aside an extra $30 at 16GB or $50 at 32GB vs Micron Rev. E that you could instead spend on a better graphics card.

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post #16 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-05-2019, 09:32 PM
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Some of my post was directed at damric, but yeah, I'm fairly interested in how these perform and how the tRFC is- stock and lowered. tFAW was pretty bad.

Regardless, damric is posting up some very nice bandwidth and latency with these at 3466 regardless.

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post #17 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-06-2019, 06:47 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by neurotix View Post
That FAW is crazy high... I'm used to running mine at 16-24 depending on clock. tWR is high too.

How is tRFC on these?
After bumping CAS to 18 I've been able to tighten other timings and stay at 3800 MT/s 1:1. Still using 1.39V. Haven't optimized voltages yet.

AIDA64 now gives:
59500 MB/s read
56700 MB/s write
62300 MB/s copy
66.5 ns latency

Great numbers considering. They are dual-rank sticks, 2x16 GB.

tRFC is 506 now at 3800 MT/s, made a big difference. Anything below that won't cold boot. Anything below 494 won't work at all. DRAM calc suggests 665 I think.

From top of my head tFAW is now 36. It can go lower, tried all the way down to 28 which works. Going lower than 36 improves latency, but bandwidth suffers. Tradeoff.

I'll post pics of Ryzen Master and AIDA in tomorrow.

2x16 NEO 3600 CL16 costs 2224 SEK.
2x16 FlareX 3200 CL14 costs 3067 SEK.

How much better than the stats above could I go with the FlareX/B-die instead at 3800? 62 ns? Bandwidth similar?

Last edited by globalthinker; 12-06-2019 at 11:23 AM.
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post #18 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-06-2019, 10:29 PM
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Your gains going to either the Flare X B-Die or Neo will probably be fairly marginal. If you plan to sell the current kit you have, it will be worth the switch if you make your money back to offset the cost of the Bdies, if you are going to keep them, it is probably not worth it.

I run 3800/1900 16-16-16-16-32-50 1T GDM off, tFAW 24, tRFC 304, most of the time.

Read: 60GB/sec
Write 58.7GB/sec
Copy 61.5GB/sec
Latency: 64.3ns (if I close all programs like CUE, AURA, NvControlPanel, etc. and disconnect Ethernet, unplug my mousepad, etc. this has been as low as 63.4ns- with no change in bandwidth- I think the latency is probably sub 64ns most of the time but misreported/somewhat inaccurate due to background tasks)

So, yeah your memory write and latency will probably improve but I don't think Read or Copy will much. Even at cas16 or 14 instead of 18.

If I crank the voltage I have done 14-15-16-15-32-48 1T gdm off at 3800mhz with 1.5 volt but couldn't stabilize it.

You've done some pretty incredible things with the Hynix getting Read and Copy like that with such high tRFC and CAS so maybe its worth it

Mind you, I have a 3900x so latency is basically always higher due to the penalties from jumping across CCDs. Ive never gotten latency under 63.4ns but 63.6ns is more common while benching. There was a guy who had 4400mhz bdies running on a ROG Impact + R5 3600. I saw him get ~61ns latency. He also ran 4333 cas 16 with 1866 fclk or something crazy like that and had like 70GB/sec copy bandwidth and 68ns latency. If you have a 3900x or 3950x it will be difficult to get lower than 64ns latency but on a single CCD chip Bdie will be more worth it and its possible you could get 62ns.

If you decide it's worth it, definitely pay a little more for the 3200c14 Flare X. That shop knows whats up and that the Flare X clocks better and has guaranteed Samsung Bdies, whereas its been reported that the 3600 Neos sometimes have Hynix (a guy in the DRAM Calc thread posted this)

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EVGA GTX 1080ti FTW3 2025/5940MHz
GPU
EVGA RGB SLI HB Bridge
RAM
G.SKILL Flare X B-Die 3200 C14 @ 3800MHz C14-16-15-15-30-48 1T 1.475v GDM off
Hard Drive
Samsung 970 Evo 500GB m.2 2280 PCI-E NVMe SSD
Hard Drive
WD Black 2TB
Hard Drive
WD Blue 4TB
Hard Drive
WD Blue 6TB
Hard Drive
Samsung 840 Evo SATA 256GB
Power Supply
COOLERMASTER V1000 (Seasonic 1000w 80+ Gold)
Cooling
Arctic Cooling Liquid Freezer II 38mm 360mm AIO
Cooling
Anidées AI-AUREOLA RGB fans x7
Cooling
Prolimatech PK-3 Nano 30g tube
Case
Anidées AI CRYSTAL AR3 RGB Midtower
Operating System
Debian Linux 10
Operating System
Win10 X64 Pro 1903 (gaming only), stripped down, updates blocked, Firewalled.
Monitor
LG 34WN80C 34" 3440x1440 21:9 IPS, 300 nit, HDR
Keyboard
GMMK v2 104 key | Kailh Box Jades | HyperX PBT pudding (for now)
Keyboard
OCN Ducky DK1008 MX Blues
Keyboard
Corsair K70 Lux red led/MX Reds
Keyboard
Rosewill K85 RGB Kailh/Kaihua Blue switches
Keyboard
Ducky One 2 RGB fullsize
Keyboard
Doraemon keyboard- E-Element Z-88 RGB fullsize, Kailh Box White, Cherry Blue O-Rings, White/Baby blue generic Amazon Tai Hao caps
Mouse
CM MasterMouse MM520
Mousepad
SuTechSmart aka generic giant thicc cloth RGB mousepad at the top of the Amazon ranking. ($20)
Audio
Logitech G230 red
Audio
Logitech Z2300 2.1 120w 8" sub, w/ 40w satellites
Other
Phanteks RGB 5050/Digital RGB strips
Other
Respawn Black/Gray Racing Chair
CPU
i5-7600k 5GHz 1.32v
Motherboard
ASUS ROG Z270H Strix
GPU
Sapphire R9 380X Nitro 1200/1500mhz
RAM
G.skill Ripjaws4 DDR4-3000 CAS15
Hard Drive
Western Digital Caviar Blue 320gb
Hard Drive
Samsung 850 Evo 256gb
Power Supply
OCZ ModXStream Pro 500w
Cooling
Corsair H60/PK-3
Case
Thermaltake Core V71
Operating System
Win10 Home
Monitor
2x ASUS V236H 1080p
Keyboard
Corsair K70 Lux Blue LED Cherry MX Blue
Mouse
Cooler Master
Mouse
Thermaltake GAMMA
CPU
Raspberry Pi 3B
Optical Drive
DENON DCD-560 CD Player, dual integrated 20bit Burr Brown PCM61P DAC's
Operating System
Kodi 17.2
Monitor
ASUS V238H 23" 1080p 60 Hz
Audio
Pioneer SX-255R Receiver, 4x 100w
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TECHNICS SB-A32 Floor Standers, 4x8" polyurethane woofers, 100w/cabinet, 1" His and 3" Midrange
Audio
Polk Audio PSW-505 300w subwoofer, replaced woofer with CT SOUNDS TROPO 12" 4Ω DVC car sub wired in series, 8Ω, 300w
Audio
Kenwood GE-4030 Stereo Graphic Equalizer
Audio
TECHNICS RS-T18 dual tape deck
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Last edited by neurotix; 12-06-2019 at 10:36 PM.
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post #19 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-11-2019, 08:57 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by neurotix View Post

If you decide it's worth it, definitely pay a little more for the 3200c14 Flare X. That shop knows whats up and that the Flare X clocks better and has guaranteed Samsung Bdies, whereas its been reported that the 3600 Neos sometimes have Hynix (a guy in the DRAM Calc thread posted this)
There's 2 CAS 16 DDR4-3600 Neo's . I have the ones that end in GTZNC (C on end) and they're Hynix D-die. Not sure about their other kits, There's a 14-15-15-35 and 16-16-16-36 that have the timings of B-die. The 16-19-19-39 kit I have (hynix) and 18-22-22-42.

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post #20 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-13-2019, 12:38 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by neurotix View Post
Your gains going to either the Flare X B-Die or Neo will probably be fairly marginal.
I run 3800/1900 16-16-16-16-32-50 1T GDM off, tFAW 24, tRFC 304, most of the time.

Read: 60GB/sec
Write 58.7GB/sec
Copy 61.5GB/sec
Latency: 64.3ns

Mind you, I have a 3900x so latency is basically always higher due to the penalties from jumping across CCDs.

If you have a 3900x or 3950x it will be difficult to get lower than 64ns latency but on a single CCD chip Bdie will be more worth it and its possible you could get 62ns.
Those are some nice timings and settings! I have finally gotten everything stable at 3800 MT/s 1:1 now, so I will keep the Hynix DJR:s. It would probably have taken a lot less time to get b-dies stable.

I'm hoping to get some voltages down a bit... But here's what I'm running right now. Tested through 1000% in Memtest just fine. This rig does 14200 h/s in Monero RandomX btw at 4150 MHz all core. Going down to 3733 MHz with tighter timings, same latency, still only yields 13400 h/s at 4150 MHz all core. Getting IF to 1900 MHz does wonders.

Read: 59.4 GB/sec
Write 56.8 GB/sec
Copy 62.2 GB/sec
Latency: 66.9ns

Mem voltage: 1.45V (high, but it did the trick)
SOC: 1.1375 (1.10 was not enough, spurious errors did occur, not at the fault of memory it seems)
VDDG CCD: 1.07 (cold boot does not work below 1.07)
VDDG IOD: 0.95 (could probably be lower, haven't tested)
VDDP: 0.95 (can probably also be lower)
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Last edited by globalthinker; 12-29-2019 at 10:47 AM.
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