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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 03:32 PM
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I wouldn't pay that much...

I setup our office server myself. Went with a SuperMicro Server, running ESXI where I have a few VM's running. One of which is a old copy of Server 2008R2 that I re-purposed. It is largely just a file and print server, as well as host our Quickbooks, runs the door lock software for the building, and acts as the Unifi Controller for the AP units. We use DropBox as our main file server, but everything gets backed up locally along with stuff we only host locally like Quickbooks. Which is also backed up onto drop box via a VHD with Bitlocker.

I also use it to host our VPN, so people from the office can log in and access files or services. Like the accountant getting access to the quicbooks. I also have a couple windows 10 VM's for people that need to remote into a local windows install, We do a lot with Rockwell Automation so we do some testing on there. Also a Ubuntu server setup for local hosted web tools developed in house.


Not sure if you really need a windows server setup with so many licences....


And the Dell support really only comes in handy if something breaks, that is something your company would have to decide on. I say screw it myself. We get dell all the time for Clients, and they pretty much toss in 3 year warrants for business computers for pretty much for free. As we still get them for less than what the online web site list them as. But I'm always having to go on their web site to find the best deal and spec on hardware we buy, as if I let our dell rep pick a machine out. It tends to be more expensive and packing a HDD than a equal machine I will find packing a SSD.


I honestly don't believe SAS drives are worth it TBH. You can put together something just as dependable for cheaper. OS should never get installed on a HDD of any type, and data storage can easily be handled by multiple 10TB Sata Drives. Just set it up so it backs up in multiple places and if one drive fails you don't need to shut down to replace. At work we have our data in 3 spots (Server, and NAS in each building that it backs up to), and another in the cloud. Before I took over they suffered a major loss of files from a poorly setup network, which is why they moved to the cloud in the first place. But there are files they don't want synced to the cloud. I pretty much made it so you need to burn down our side of town to kill our data.


I would tell your IT guy to be more reasonable.

Last edited by DzillaXx; 02-01-2018 at 03:44 PM.
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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 03:39 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by rpm666 View Post
You might want to look at a slightly different configuration. While technically all those roles can exist on the same server, you don't do that.

Imagine the print spooler has hung because of a failed job so you have to take down all file access for xxx amount of time to bring it back up? Or if your RDS gateway is on the DC so basically you have your domain controller internet facing?

I would suggest 4 VM's are required.

Never use consumer grade stuff, I know it sounds neat but no.

Is your server in house or this is something being purchased to be hosted elsewhere?
3 VMs seems like enough, no? Not sure where the fourth comes in.

Also, what's the issue with Threadripper? Not like an Intel server mobo will live longer. I have small clients using Ryzen.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ultracarpet View Post
Server is in house, and I can't imagine it would be much a problem for me to just ask them to make 4 VM's instead of 2 as what you are saying makes perfect sense.
You do need more licenses, though. That's the catch.

Quote: Originally Posted by matthew87 View Post
This.

You pay a premium for the warranty and SLA. Dell or HP will be out within x hours, same day, with parts to repair or replace any faulty component. So too that even 3-5 years down the track parts are still available.

Additionally guaranteed compatibility and support. That raid controller, disks, RAM, CPU, motherboard and chipset, are all validated and verified to work together both at a hardware level and for specific operating systems such as Redhat, Vmware and Windows Server. The vendor has validated and certified with the OS manufacturers that their hardware is compatible with these operating systems and will work as intended.

Effectively you pay for piece of mind. Sure you could go out and build your own EPYC server for a fraction of the cost, but you're not going to get the aforementioned support.
That's what the warranty part is for, and I agree that's very appropriate. The part he's concerned about, the software and tech support, is completely unnecessary when they have local IT. It's basically like Dell will help you set up your VMs and other software, rather than just hardware.

A sidenote, who builds a computer without matching RAM/CPU/Mobo etc? That sounds absolutely insane.


Quote: Originally Posted by DzillaXx View Post
I wouldn't pay that much...

I would tell your IT guy to be more reasonable.
Trimmed to my favorite parts XD

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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 03:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by DzillaXx View Post
I wouldn't pay that much...

I setup our office server myself. Went with a SuperMicro Server, running ESXI where I have a few VM's running. One of which is a old copy of Server 2008R2 that I re-purposed. It is largely just a file and print server, as well as host our Quickbooks, runs the door lock software for the building, and acts as the Unifi Controller for the AP units. We use DropBox as our main file server, but everything gets backed up locally along with stuff we only host locally like Quickbooks. Which is also backed up onto drop box via a VHD with Bitlocker.

I also use it to host our VPN, so people from the office can log in and access files or services. Like the accountant getting access to the drop box. I also have a couple windows 10 VM's for people that need to remote into a local windows install, We do a lot with Rockwell Automation so we do some testing on there. Also a Ubuntu server setup for local hosted web tools developed in house.


Not sure if you really need a windows server setup with so many licences....


And the Dell support really only comes in handy if something breaks, that is something your company would have to decide on. I say screw it myself. We get dell all the time for Clients, and they pretty much toss in 3 year warrants for business computers for pretty much for free. As we still get them for less than what the online web site list them as. But I'm always having to go on their web site to find the best deal and spec on hardware we buy, as if I let our dell rep pick a machine out. It tends to be more expensive and packing a HDD than a equal machine I will find packing a SSD.


I honestly don't believe SAS drives are worth it TBH. You can put together something just as dependable for cheaper. OS should never get installed on a HDD of any type, and data storage can easily be handled by multiple 10TB Sata Drives. Just set it up so it backs up in multiple places and if one drive fails you don't need to shut down to replace. At work we have our data in 3 spots (Server, and NAS in each building that it backs up to), and another in the cloud. Before I took over they suffered a major loss of files for a poorly setup network, which is why they moved to the cloud in the first place. But there are files they don't want synced to the cloud. I pretty much made it so you need to burn down our side of town to kill our data.


I would tell your IT guy to be more reasonable.

Thanks for the input!

Your system seems like a beast!

I don't know how windows server licensing works (like at all) so I couldn't tell you why we need 30 windows server licenses.

Do you know at all how DELL warranties work if you are using HDD's/SSD's that are not purchased through them? All of their enterprise drives are insanely expensive.

Also, how necessary their hw/sw tech support and assistance is? The next business day onsite service is a separate warranty which is about 1/6th the price of the hw/sw tech support and assistance. I feel like we don't need both of those.

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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 04:09 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Ultracarpet View Post
I don't really have a problem with the NBD repair service, and everything else hardware-wise, outside of the almost $1k/piece 1.2TB HDD's, doesn't really bother me too much; the epyc question was more or less me asking if DELL, or anyone else was offering pre-built systems using the AMD platform, and if they were cheaper.

The part that leaves me a bit uneasy is 60% of the entire bill coming down to the "HW/SW Tech support and assistance". Is this not what we pay our current IT company monthly for? And beyond that, if everything already has a price premium for guaranteed compatibility how necessary is this service really?

Epyc is just too new. I doubt dell even has a lineup for AMD servers yet. Microsoft is already adding AMD Server's to their could platform... They are ready for prime time, just vendors needs to catch up first.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ultracarpet View Post
Thanks for the input!

Your system seems like a beast!

I don't know how windows server licensing works (like at all) so I couldn't tell you why we need 30 windows server licenses.

Do you know at all how DELL warranties work if you are using HDD's/SSD's that are not purchased through them? All of their enterprise drives are insanely expensive.

Also, how necessary their hw/sw tech support and assistance is? The next business day onsite service is a separate warranty which is about 1/6th the price of the hw/sw tech support and assistance. I feel like we don't need both of those.

I never get a Server Quoted through dell, as the cost just didn't fit what we really needed to use it for. And I've had plenty of experience with Barebones Supermicro stuff in the past. And with me wanting to go the ESXI route, it made sense. Supermicro stuff is just as good as the stuff you get from dell, so I knew I was already covered in dependably. But I did spend a lot more time setting it up than you would if you got a pre made dell server...


For Starters you really don't need anything more than a Dell R230 or R330.

You can configure it for Sata, but buy our own Sata Drivers. Dell over charges for Server Storage. You can get 10 WD or Seagate drives for much cheaper. Only get a 200+ GB SSD. Only get the fast dependable OS Drive, which is clearly the SDD.

If you need more than 4 hot swap HDD Bays, and don't want to get an external 1U HDD enclosure for more drives, get a R430. Which that was, but he configured it in a expensive way...


Sure a setup like will require you to pop in the data drives yourself, but that is dead easy....


Windows should never get installed on a HDD, and almost always is configured that way by default. The fact that your original quote doesn't even have a SSD if a red flag that your IT guy is either lazy or an idiot.

Starting at Price $11,182.00
Total Savings $4,181.89
Standard Delivery Free
Dell Price $7,000.11
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As low as $211/mo.^ | Apply
Ships in 4–6 business days
Add to Cart

Customize
Option Selection SKU / Product Code Quantity
PowerEdge R430 PowerEdge R430 Server [210-ADLO][384-BBMW] / R43X 1
Trusted Platform Module (TPM) No Trusted Platform Module [461-AADZ] / NTPM 1
Chassis 2.5” Chassis with up to 8 Hot Plug Hard Drives and Embedded SATA [321-BBNL] / 8HDHPS 1
Shipping SHIPPING AND HANDLING [340-AMJF] / SHIP 1
Processor Intel® Xeon® E5-2620 v4 2.1GHz,20M Cache,8.0GT/s QPI,Turbo,HT,8C/16T (85W) Max Mem 2133MHz [338-BJCZ] / 26200 1
Additional Processor No Additional Processor [374-BBBX] / 1P 1
Processor Thermal Configuration 1 CPU Standard [370-ABXO][374-BBIJ] / 1CPU 1
Cooling None 1
Memory DIMM Type and Speed 2400MT/s RDIMMs [370-ACPH] / 2400MT 1
PCIe Riser Riser with One x16 PCIe Gen3 FH slot (x8 PCIe lanes) & One x16 PCIe Gen3 LP slot (x8 PCIe lanes) [330-BBEE] / RSR1FH 1
Memory Configuration Type Performance Optimized [370-AAIP] / PEOPT 1
Memoryi 16GB RDIMM, 2400MT/s, Dual Rank, x8 Data Width [370-ACNX] / 16GBMM 1
RAID No RAID with Embedded SATA (1-10 SATA HDDs or SATA SSDs) [780-BBPF] / NRES 1
RAID Controller Embedded SATA [405-AACD] / NCTRLR 1
Hard Drive 480GB Solid State Drive SATA Mix Use MLC 6Gbps 512e 2.5in Hot-plug Drive, S4600 [400-ATRE] / 480GBC 1
Additional Network Cards On-Board Broadcom 5720 Quad Port 1Gb LOM [542-BBCO] / OBNICQ 1
Embedded Systems Management iDRAC8, Basic [385-BBIJ] / I8BAS 1
Internal SD Module None 1
Internal Optical Drive No Internal Optical Drive for 8 HD Chassis [429-AAQN] / NODVD 1
Rack Rails ReadyRails™ Sliding Rails With Cable Management Arm [770-BBBL] / RRCMA 1
Bezel No Bezel [350-BBBW] / NOBEZL 1
Power Management BIOS Settings Power Saving Dell Active Power Controller [750-AABF] / DAPC 1
Power Cords NEMA 5-15P to C13 Wall Plug, 125 Volt, 15 AMP, 10 Feet (3m), Power Cord, North America [450-AALV] / 125V10 1
Power Supply Single, Hot-plug Power Supply (1+0), 550W [450-AEGY] / 550NR 1
System Documentation No Systems Documentation, No OpenManage DVD Kit [631-AACK] / NODOCS 1
Operating System Windows Server® 2016,Standard,16CORE,Factory Inst,No MED,NO CAL [634-BILL] / WS2FI 1
OS Media Kits Windows Server® 2016,Standard,16CORE, Media Kit [634-BILD] / WS20S 1
Additional Virtual Machines for MS2016 Additional 2Virtual Machines,1 Processor with 8CORES each [634-BILH] / 8COR1 3
Licenses Windows Server® 2016,Standard Ed, Add License,16CORE,NO MEDIA/KEY [634-BILE] / MS216 4
Client Access Licenses 10-pack of Windows® Server 2016,2012 USER CALs (Standard or Datacenter) [634-BIMQ] / 10PWSU 1
Client Access Licenses 5-pack of Windows Server 2016 Remote Desktop Services, USER [634-BINC] / 5PCALU 1
OS Partitions None 1
Virtualization Software None 1
Enabled Virtualization None 1
Database Software None 1
Advanced System Configurations UEFI BIOS Boot Mode with GPT Partition [800-BBDM] / UEFIB 1
Additional Software Offerings None 1
Support & Services
Option Selection SKU / Product Code Quantity
Warrantyi ProSupport Plus: 3 Year Next Business Day On-site Service [951-2015][997-2924][997-2983][997-2992] / PSP3YNB 1
ProSupport for Microsoft Applications None 1
Deployment Services No Installation [900-9997] / NOINSTL 1
Proactive Systems Management Dell Proactive Systems Management - Declined [909-0259] / NOPSM 1
Keep Your Hard Drive None 1
Remote Consulting Services Declined Remote Consulting Service [973-2426] / NORCS 1
Software & Accessories


Honestly I would have configured it something closer to this, and just pick up 4-6 5-10TB drivers on your own and pop them in....

Windows Licencing is a big chunk of money regardless, and each VM requires a $600 licence. The CAL licences is for multiple accounts connected at the same time, which is what you will need. And the 5 Remote Desktops may not be needed, but it is there in case you do...


But other things to consider would be the need for a 10gbe adapter with SFP+ ports. If you use those...

Quote: Originally Posted by Ultracarpet View Post
I feel like our IT company is trying to make us front that price for them lol.

Actually, to go a little further, the server we currently have is a dual sandybridge 4c8t system... is there any reason we can't achieve what we need with this server by just updating the software? Or is there compatibility issues?


Actually that is still plenty of power, you could reconfigure...

But question would be if the IT guy would be willing to do so.

Otherwise you or someone else would need to upgrade and configure it to the point where the IT guy can do his job. (setup new version of windows with all the licences and jazz) Setup HDD config, etc... Stuff that not every IT guy is comfortable doing.

Last edited by Bitemarks and bloodstains; 02-03-2018 at 03:01 PM.
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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-02-2018, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by DzillaXx View Post
Starting at Price $11,182.00
Total Savings $4,181.89
Standard Delivery Free
Dell Price $7,000.11
Dell Business Credit
As low as $211/mo.^ | Apply
Ships in 4–6 business days
Add to Cart

Customize
Option Selection SKU / Product Code Quantity
PowerEdge R430 PowerEdge R430 Server [210-ADLO][384-BBMW] / R43X 1
Trusted Platform Module (TPM) No Trusted Platform Module [461-AADZ] / NTPM 1
Chassis 2.5” Chassis with up to 8 Hot Plug Hard Drives and Embedded SATA [321-BBNL] / 8HDHPS 1
Shipping SHIPPING AND HANDLING [340-AMJF] / SHIP 1
Processor Intel® Xeon® E5-2620 v4 2.1GHz,20M Cache,8.0GT/s QPI,Turbo,HT,8C/16T (85W) Max Mem 2133MHz [338-BJCZ] / 26200 1
Additional Processor No Additional Processor [374-BBBX] / 1P 1
Processor Thermal Configuration 1 CPU Standard [370-ABXO][374-BBIJ] / 1CPU 1
Cooling None 1
Memory DIMM Type and Speed 2400MT/s RDIMMs [370-ACPH] / 2400MT 1
PCIe Riser Riser with One x16 PCIe Gen3 FH slot (x8 PCIe lanes) & One x16 PCIe Gen3 LP slot (x8 PCIe lanes) [330-BBEE] / RSR1FH 1
Memory Configuration Type Performance Optimized [370-AAIP] / PEOPT 1
Memoryi 16GB RDIMM, 2400MT/s, Dual Rank, x8 Data Width [370-ACNX] / 16GBMM 1
RAID No RAID with Embedded SATA (1-10 SATA HDDs or SATA SSDs) [780-BBPF] / NRES 1
RAID Controller Embedded SATA [405-AACD] / NCTRLR 1
Hard Drive 480GB Solid State Drive SATA Mix Use MLC 6Gbps 512e 2.5in Hot-plug Drive, S4600 [400-ATRE] / 480GBC 1
Additional Network Cards On-Board Broadcom 5720 Quad Port 1Gb LOM [542-BBCO] / OBNICQ 1
Embedded Systems Management iDRAC8, Basic [385-BBIJ] / I8BAS 1
Internal SD Module None 1
Internal Optical Drive No Internal Optical Drive for 8 HD Chassis [429-AAQN] / NODVD 1
Rack Rails ReadyRails™ Sliding Rails With Cable Management Arm [770-BBBL] / RRCMA 1
Bezel No Bezel [350-BBBW] / NOBEZL 1
Power Management BIOS Settings Power Saving Dell Active Power Controller [750-AABF] / DAPC 1
Power Cords NEMA 5-15P to C13 Wall Plug, 125 Volt, 15 AMP, 10 Feet (3m), Power Cord, North America [450-AALV] / 125V10 1
Power Supply Single, Hot-plug Power Supply (1+0), 550W [450-AEGY] / 550NR 1
System Documentation No Systems Documentation, No OpenManage DVD Kit [631-AACK] / NODOCS 1
Operating System Windows Server® 2016,Standard,16CORE,Factory Inst,No MED,NO CAL [634-BILL] / WS2FI 1
OS Media Kits Windows Server® 2016,Standard,16CORE, Media Kit [634-BILD] / WS20S 1
Additional Virtual Machines for MS2016 Additional 2Virtual Machines,1 Processor with 8CORES each [634-BILH] / 8COR1 3
Licenses Windows Server® 2016,Standard Ed, Add License,16CORE,NO MEDIA/KEY [634-BILE] / MS216 4
Client Access Licenses 10-pack of Windows® Server 2016,2012 USER CALs (Standard or Datacenter) [634-BIMQ] / 10PWSU 1
Client Access Licenses 5-pack of Windows Server 2016 Remote Desktop Services, USER [634-BINC] / 5PCALU 1
OS Partitions None 1
Virtualization Software None 1
Enabled Virtualization None 1
Database Software None 1
Advanced System Configurations UEFI BIOS Boot Mode with GPT Partition [800-BBDM] / UEFIB 1
Additional Software Offerings None 1
Support & Services
Option Selection SKU / Product Code Quantity
Warrantyi ProSupport Plus: 3 Year Next Business Day On-site Service [951-2015][997-2924][997-2983][997-2992] / PSP3YNB 1
ProSupport for Microsoft Applications None 1
Deployment Services No Installation [900-9997] / NOINSTL 1
Proactive Systems Management Dell Proactive Systems Management - Declined [909-0259] / NOPSM 1
Keep Your Hard Drive None 1
Remote Consulting Services Declined Remote Consulting Service [973-2426] / NORCS 1
Software & Accessories


Honestly I would have configured it something closer to this, and just pick up 4-6 5-10TB drivers on your own and pop them in....

Windows Licencing is a big chunk of money regardless, and each VM requires a $600 licence. The CAL licences is for multiple accounts connected at the same time, which is what you will need. And the 5 Remote Desktops may not be needed, but it is there in case you do...


But other things to consider would be the need for a 10gbe adapter with SFP+ ports. If you use those...
Wow, thank you for doing this! I am definitely going to be recommending this, or at least a version that is much closer to this. I do have a quick question about the VM licenses; do you need the full blown 16core license for each VM? Or is it only the 2core license for each VM?

*edit* wow this licensing stuff is confusing. From what I'm reading the minimum is 16cores of licensing, and each license comes with 2 VMs... So If I did 8 x 2-core license packs would that work out?

*edit2* lol, I'm guessing that you can't end up with more VM's than 2 at the minimum of 16 cores, so I would probably need 2 standard 16 core licenses for 4 VMs.


Last edited by Ultracarpet; 02-02-2018 at 01:17 PM.
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post #16 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-03-2018, 02:36 PM
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Server 2016 has a strange new licensing model, which is based on number of CPU cores, that's probably where the 3x10 packs come from.

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post #17 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-04-2018, 01:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by Blameless View Post
Server 2016 has a strange new licensing model, which is based on number of CPU cores, that's probably where the 3x10 packs come from.
Yea, from what i could tell it was a minimum of 16 cores, which comes with 2 VM's, and then if you want 1 or 2 more VM's you have to license every core again... so I think 2 16 core licenses should be enough.

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