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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote for server doesn't feel right

Hi everyone. I know very little in terms of enterprise systems, servers etc... However; this quote we received from the company that does our IT left me with so many questions. See the attached thumbnail (prices in CAD):

-Why on earth are Dell's 1.2 TB HDD SAS drives $1k a piece (are these really that necessary??), and why are they $200 cheaper if you buy them outside of the configuration screen lol?

-Almost $7k of that quoted price is a Dell 5 year software support for ms enerprise. I have no idea if this is actually needed or not, as it seems like that's the type of thing we pay our IT company monthly to help us with anyway lol.

-Is Dell more expensive than other solutions?

-Is AMD's epyc stuff cheaper?
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 12:30 PM
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That is an insanely expensive system. Yes, there are some "top of the line" components, but they are really unnecessary. For example, you pointed out the expensive SAS drives. SAS drives are obsolete in my experience. The 10K is supposed to increase seek time, but compared to an SSD it's a drop in the bucket.

Redundant PSU is only necessary if you REALLY need that 24-hour uptime. It's cheaper to buy two regular PSUs (by a lot) and simply switch them if it goes out.

Not a lot of RAM for this powerhouse of a system, kind of strange.

3 10 packs of Server 2016? Are you running 30 virtual machines? With 16GB RAM, I can say you will not do this successfully.

Onsite service after problem diagnosis is kind of nice, free parts replacement for 5 years.

HW / SW tech support and assistance is jacked, it's basically just customer support for 5 years. Take that out for sure.

Motherboard/processor is good, but for highly threaded workloads EPYC would be cheaper and faster. In fact, Threadripper would be more than enough, as they go up to 16 cores irc.

I actually work for a company that builds custom servers. We actually use a LOT of dell PCs for workstations, but I wouldn't touch prebuilt servers anymore. Markup is insane.

If you're serious about getting a powerhouse, contact me via PM and I can set you up to get one built and shipped to you much cheaper.

Edit:
A rough rundown of a Threadripper system:
1900X (8 core, 16 thread, roughly equivalent to your quote for Intel)
16GB DDR4
5 x 1TB SSD
ASUS PRIME X99 Motherboard
Phantex case (can be anything, really. EATX is good though.)
Server 2016 with 5 CALs (includes 2VMs, not sure how many you need...)
Corsair 750W PSU (good to be over your power requirement)
Come out to roughly (with markup, assembly costs) $5000.

PSU can be switched out for a redundant for about $400-$450 extra. They're spendy.

Upside: Way cheaper system cost, much cheaper to replace parts in as they are widely available. Upscalable, as you can add a WHOLE LOT of parts to this system. Up to 16 cores/32 threads processor, literally insane amounts of RAM, etc.

Downside: Certain parts don't have as long of warranties. The SSDs I pick are the Samsung's with 5 year warranties, so they get to stay up there, but otherwise it's just the warranty that comes with the hardware. No remote diagnosis and such, but that's what your local tech company is getting paid for.

Edit again:
Had to check out of curiosity, this processor is ~50% faster than the Intel one quoted. http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare...22651vsm340638

The most bad*** way to upgrade your PC https://www.overclock.net/jokes-humor...ml#post9266804

Quote:
Originally Posted by hitoriko go_quote.gif
i dont need a cpu i just have ex-foxconn workers yelling out 010101000010100000 at incredible speeds....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus2129 go_quote.gif
Sometime when we weren't paying attention the universe's odometer rolled over to "future", and no one noticed.



Last edited by Cindex; 02-01-2018 at 12:47 PM. Reason: Added info.
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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 12:38 PM
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I think most of the price of "enterprise" hardware is actually paying for having someone else to blame when things go wrong.



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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 12:42 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ltpdttcdft View Post
I think most of the price of "enterprise" hardware is actually paying for having someone else to blame when things go wrong.
Such a true statement... The blame game is all too common in IT.

The most bad*** way to upgrade your PC https://www.overclock.net/jokes-humor...ml#post9266804

Quote:
Originally Posted by hitoriko go_quote.gif
i dont need a cpu i just have ex-foxconn workers yelling out 010101000010100000 at incredible speeds....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus2129 go_quote.gif
Sometime when we weren't paying attention the universe's odometer rolled over to "future", and no one noticed.


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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 01:20 PM
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What's the server for? I'm assuming a file server for approx 30 users and 5 remote sessions.

I'd say the majority of that price is Licensing ($2500 US) and the rest just seller mark up and support mark up.

No IT department is going to put some Threadripper system in a datacenter FYI.

Long story short the quote looks wrong to me too.

Intel:MainRig i7 [email protected]/Gigabyte Z68X-UD3H/16GB [email protected]/2xHD6990
Intel:Secondary Xeon [email protected] 1.35v/X58A-UD3R/12GB [email protected]/3xHD6970
AMD:HTPC 2400-BE/A7GM-S 2.0/2GB [email protected]/HDMI
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Server2:HP Proliant DL360 G5 DualQuad/[email protected]

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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 01:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by ltpdttcdft View Post
I think most of the price of "enterprise" hardware is actually paying for having someone else to blame when things go wrong.
I feel like our IT company is trying to make us front that price for them lol.

Quote: Originally Posted by Cindex View Post
That is an insanely expensive system. Yes, there are some "top of the line" components, but they are really unnecessary. For example, you pointed out the expensive SAS drives. SAS drives are obsolete in my experience. The 10K is supposed to increase seek time, but compared to an SSD it's a drop in the bucket.

Redundant PSU is only necessary if you REALLY need that 24-hour uptime. It's cheaper to buy two regular PSUs (by a lot) and simply switch them if it goes out.

Not a lot of RAM for this powerhouse of a system, kind of strange.

3 10 packs of Server 2016? Are you running 30 virtual machines? With 16GB RAM, I can say you will not do this successfully.

Onsite service after problem diagnosis is kind of nice, free parts replacement for 5 years.

HW / SW tech support and assistance is jacked, it's basically just customer support for 5 years. Take that out for sure.

Motherboard/processor is good, but for highly threaded workloads EPYC would be cheaper and faster. In fact, Threadripper would be more than enough, as they go up to 16 cores irc.

I actually work for a company that builds custom servers. We actually use a LOT of dell PCs for workstations, but I wouldn't touch prebuilt servers anymore. Markup is insane.

If you're serious about getting a powerhouse, contact me via PM and I can set you up to get one built and shipped to you much cheaper.

Edit:
A rough rundown of a Threadripper system:
1900X (8 core, 16 thread, roughly equivalent to your quote for Intel)
16GB DDR4
5 x 1TB SSD
ASUS PRIME X99 Motherboard
Phantex case (can be anything, really. EATX is good though.)
Server 2016 with 5 CALs (includes 2VMs, not sure how many you need...)
Corsair 750W PSU (good to be over your power requirement)
Come out to roughly (with markup, assembly costs) $5000.

PSU can be switched out for a redundant for about $400-$450 extra. They're spendy.

Upside: Way cheaper system cost, much cheaper to replace parts in as they are widely available. Upscalable, as you can add a WHOLE LOT of parts to this system. Up to 16 cores/32 threads processor, literally insane amounts of RAM, etc.

Downside: Certain parts don't have as long of warranties. The SSDs I pick are the Samsung's with 5 year warranties, so they get to stay up there, but otherwise it's just the warranty that comes with the hardware. No remote diagnosis and such, but that's what your local tech company is getting paid for.

Edit again:
Had to check out of curiosity, this processor is ~50% faster than the Intel one quoted. http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare...22651vsm340638
Quote: Originally Posted by rpm666 View Post
What's the server for? I'm assuming a file server for approx 30 users and 5 remote sessions.

I'd say the majority of that price is Licensing ($2500 US) and the rest just seller mark up and support mark up.

No IT department is going to put some Threadripper system in a datacenter FYI.

Long story short the quote looks wrong to me too.
So, AFAIK, there is only 2 VM's needed (1 DC/File and print server and 1 remote desktop server). I think that as far as uptime goes, we are looking for something that would be running pretty much 24/7 because we have people (drafters lol) that work at strange hours sometimes. As well as management was wanting to allow some clients access to certain things within the server.

We aren't a huge company or anything, we have about ~20 people in office. Only about 4 or 5 of them will realistically be utilizing the remote destop server.

I'm not sure I would be able to convince them to use consumer grade stuff, but who knows..

Actually, to go a little further, the server we currently have is a dual sandybridge 4c8t system... is there any reason we can't achieve what we need with this server by just updating the software? Or is there compatibility issues?

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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 02:06 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Ultracarpet View Post
I feel like our IT company is trying to make us front that price for them lol.





So, AFAIK, there is only 2 VM's needed (1 DC/File and print server and 1 remote desktop server). I think that as far as uptime goes, we are looking for something that would be running pretty much 24/7 because we have people (drafters lol) that work at strange hours sometimes. As well as management was wanting to allow some clients access to certain things within the server.

We aren't a huge company or anything, we have about ~20 people in office. Only about 4 or 5 of them will realistically be utilizing the remote destop server.

I'm not sure I would be able to convince them to use consumer grade stuff, but who knows..

Actually, to go a little further, the server we currently have is a dual sandybridge 4c8t system... is there any reason we can't achieve what we need with this server by just updating the software? Or is there compatibility issues?
You might want to look at a slightly different configuration. While technically all those roles can exist on the same server, you don't do that.

Imagine the print spooler has hung because of a failed job so you have to take down all file access for xxx amount of time to bring it back up? Or if your RDS gateway is on the DC so basically you have your domain controller internet facing?

I would suggest 4 VM's are required.

Never use consumer grade stuff, I know it sounds neat but no.

Is your server in house or this is something being purchased to be hosted elsewhere?

Intel:MainRig i7 [email protected]/Gigabyte Z68X-UD3H/16GB [email protected]/2xHD6990
Intel:Secondary Xeon [email protected] 1.35v/X58A-UD3R/12GB [email protected]/3xHD6970
AMD:HTPC 2400-BE/A7GM-S 2.0/2GB [email protected]/HDMI
Server1ell R610 DualQuad/[email protected]
Server2:HP Proliant DL360 G5 DualQuad/[email protected]

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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by rpm666 View Post
You might want to look at a slightly different configuration. While technically all those roles can exist on the same server, you don't do that.

Imagine the print spooler has hung because of a failed job so you have to take down all file access for xxx amount of time to bring it back up? Or if your RDS gateway is on the DC so basically you have your domain controller internet facing?

I would suggest 4 VM's are required.

Never use consumer grade stuff, I know it sounds neat but no.

Is your server in house or this is something being purchased to be hosted elsewhere?
Server is in house, and I can't imagine it would be much a problem for me to just ask them to make 4 VM's instead of 2 as what you are saying makes perfect sense.

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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 02:47 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ltpdttcdft View Post
I think most of the price of "enterprise" hardware is actually paying for having someone else to blame when things go wrong.
This.

You pay a premium for the warranty and SLA. Dell or HP will be out within x hours, same day, with parts to repair or replace any faulty component. So too that even 3-5 years down the track parts are still available.

Additionally guaranteed compatibility and support. That raid controller, disks, RAM, CPU, motherboard and chipset, are all validated and verified to work together both at a hardware level and for specific operating systems such as Redhat, Vmware and Windows Server. The vendor has validated and certified with the OS manufacturers that their hardware is compatible with these operating systems and will work as intended.

Effectively you pay for piece of mind. Sure you could go out and build your own EPYC server for a fraction of the cost, but you're not going to get the aforementioned support.
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by matthew87 View Post
This.

You pay a premium for the warranty and SLA. Dell or HP will be out within x hours, same day, with parts to repair or replace any faulty component. So too that even 3-5 years down the track parts are still available.

Additionally guaranteed compatibility and support. That raid controller, disks, RAM, CPU, motherboard and chipset, are all validated and verified to work together both at a hardware level and for specific operating systems such as Redhat, Vmware and Windows Server. The vendor has validated and certified with the OS manufacturers that their hardware is compatible with these operating systems and will work as intended.

Effectively you pay for piece of mind. Sure you could go out and build your own EPYC server for a fraction of the cost, but you're not going to get the aforementioned support.
I don't really have a problem with the NBD repair service, and everything else hardware-wise, outside of the almost $1k/piece 1.2TB HDD's, doesn't really bother me too much; the epyc question was more or less me asking if DELL, or anyone else was offering pre-built systems using the AMD platform, and if they were cheaper.

The part that leaves me a bit uneasy is 60% of the entire bill coming down to the "HW/SW Tech support and assistance". Is this not what we pay our current IT company monthly for? And beyond that, if everything already has a price premium for guaranteed compatibility how necessary is this service really?

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