[Techpowerup] NVIDIA DLSS and its Surprising Resolution Limitations - Page 4 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community

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[Techpowerup] NVIDIA DLSS and its Surprising Resolution Limitations

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post #31 of 91 (permalink) Old 02-15-2019, 07:26 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by UltraMega View Post
I mentioned this in another thread, that Watch Dogs 2 has an option it calls Temporal Filtering which is basically an Ubisoft version of checkerboarding mixed with some AA, and it works extremely well in that game. I know personally I could not tell the difference visually, only that my FPS was a lot higher. Given how good the implimentation worked in that game, I woudn't be surprised if Ubisoft is now using it by default to some extent in some if the newer titles, because I don't know why they wouldn't at least have it as an option in newer games unless they believe their implimentation of it is so good that it should be used all the time now. If that is the case, I would say they're logic isn't wrong at all. If you can only tell their games are using upscaling by doing an indepth frame comparison then why not use it all the time?

Side note, It would have been great if they had that feature for Wildlands when that games released because that game basically looks just as good as some of their newer titles but it's still a very demanding game on any PC, and when it released I think a lot of people avoided it because of how demanding it was.
Yea, personally I like the 'console peasantry' upscalers. From the viewing distance from me to my TV I can't tell (I can if I move a lot closer), and it allows the PS4 Pro to look much better than it would without it.

Honestly surprised AMD hasn't brought the checkerboard-rending over to PC yet (at least, I can't imagine it would be that hard too, but I don't know anything about stuff like that!).
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post #32 of 91 (permalink) Old 02-15-2019, 07:27 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ToTheSun! View Post
What tpi2007 is false because it's the opposite of what happens in reality, but he's not categorically wrong. He was led to believe, by statements from official documents, that GFE would be needed to manage DLSS data.


Now, that's exactly what nVidia wanted. Their wording, I bet, was intentionally ambiguous so as to incentivize people to download their software without committing to a solution that would further complicate the adoption of Turing's new features.

In that sense, let's all be friends.

Of course Nvidia changed their minds, at least for now in the meagre sample count of games we have with it, that much is a fact, it's obviously impossible to counter and neither did I do that. In fact, that is what I said and what apparently startled someone to say that the press (TR, Tom's and PCPer) was wrong when they initially reported on it. The problem is that the press wasn't wrong because that's what Nvidia said in no uncertain terms.

Contrary to what you say, there is nothing ambiguous in the Turing whitepaper about their intentions, they described in very clear terms how the system was going to work:

https://www.nvidia.com/content/dam/e...Whitepaper.pdf

Quote:
NVIDIA NGX features are managed by the NVIDIA GeForce Experience™ (GFE) application or the tech preview version of the NVIDIA Quadro Experience™ (QXP) application. After GFE or QXP is installed or updated, it looks for the presence of a Turing GPU. Once detected, the NGX Corepackage is downloaded and installed. GFE/QXP communicates with NGX Core to determine the game and application IDs present and their relevance to NGX. Different DNN models that work with various installed games and applications are then downloaded for subsequent use.

What exactly in the paragraph above leaves space for ambiguity? Of course Nvidia can do whatever it wants next, but their intentions were very clear, but apparently someone is trying to rewrite history by conflating what their written intentions were with what they are doing [for] now and accuse me of serious things along the way. And Tom's specifically confirmed with them back then too. Are we going to dispute that too? How unambiguous do things have to be? Have Jensen say it out loud on stage in pure 8K resolution so you can read the fine detail in his lips too if you wish?


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post #33 of 91 (permalink) Old 02-15-2019, 08:57 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post
Of course Nvidia changed their minds, at least for now in the meagre sample count of games we have with it, that much is a fact, it's obviously impossible to counter and neither did I do that. In fact, that is what I said and what apparently startled someone to say that the press (TR, Tom's and PCPer) was wrong when they initially reported on it. The problem is that the press wasn't wrong because that's what Nvidia said in no uncertain terms.

Contrary to what you say, there is nothing ambiguous in the Turing whitepaper about their intentions, they described in very clear terms how the system was going to work:

https://www.nvidia.com/content/dam/e...Whitepaper.pdf




What exactly in the paragraph above leaves space for ambiguity? Of course Nvidia can do whatever it wants next, but their intentions were very clear, but apparently someone is trying to rewrite history by conflating what their written intentions were with what they are doing [for] now and accuse me of serious things along the way. And Tom's specifically confirmed with them back then too. Are we going to dispute that too? How unambiguous do things have to be? Have Jensen say it out loud on stage in pure 8K resolution so you can read the fine detail in his lips too if you wish?
Yes, I know that's the excerpt you were referring to previously. I've read it a second time, just to make sure, and I find no passage in it that literally and indubitably conveys that data transfer and management regarding DLSS is exclusively bound to GFE. I'm sure you will reach the same conclusion if you go over it again with a mind to look for information that doesn't necessarily invalidate the opposite of what you believe is the case.

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post #34 of 91 (permalink) Old 02-15-2019, 09:02 AM
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post #35 of 91 (permalink) Old 02-15-2019, 09:51 AM
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That's quite a curve ball.

Quote:
if a GPU is not being challenged enough, DLSS is not going to be made available
Okay I'm gonna call it right there. What a load of bullcrap. Incredible.

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post #36 of 91 (permalink) Old 02-15-2019, 10:00 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Hwgeek View Post
OMG- Just Realized what DLSS stands for:
Details Lost - See Screenshots
I don't see any hate on AMD regarding using RPM which also lowers detail.

Comparison between FP16 vs FP32 on OG FaryCry.
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post #37 of 91 (permalink) Old 02-15-2019, 10:24 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post
This has all the hallmarks of a niche solution that will be dropped in a few years. It sounds like SLI actually, it needs profiles provided by Nvidia to work, it doesn't support all games and even in the ones that are supported, your mileage may vary. In this case you may not be able to enable it at all depending on the specific RTX card you're using and the resolution you want to play at.

I still want to see the games that support 4K DLSS tested at 1800p + TAA + Upscaling for comparison. Add that in and DLSS becomes even more of a niche feature. 1800p + TAA + Upscaling is a much more universal solution than DLSS will ever be. And you certainly don't need profiles downloaded through GFE to make it work.

The Tensor cores' main job is as a ray tracing denoiser, DLSS is just a way for Nvidia to get more people to register on GFE with their e-mail, but considering the limited horsepower of the combined RT + Tensor solution I wonder if all that die space was used by raster cores if the game devs couldn't have made the ray tracing enabled games look equally good by having more horsepower dedicated to reflections, even when it means duplicating renderings, but it still means that it's general raster hardware doing it, meaning that it can be used elsewhere on the game when needed, it's much more versatile. And from what we are seeing with the new Metro game, making things more realistic doesn't always work in a way that makes a game better gameplay-wise.

Also, they could use Voxel Global Illumination (VXGI) to achieve some of the effects, that is a tech that Nvidia introduced with Maxwell in 2014, so we've got three Nvidia consumer archs capable of doing it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_E1oVl2d01Q
Voxels can be used by developers and that's the thing, not many do, I only know one Minecraft mod does it but what modern games use it? Close to none otherwise :/

Where as "RTX features"... Nvidia is dumping money and people onto big developers to implement it.

DLSS Metro on TPU... 1440p native looks better than 1440p+DLSS=scaled to 4k, yeah... seems DLSS is worse than some cheapo bilinear scaling they probably used to make the resolutions to match on the comparison images. Ultimately this is what will always happen with any AA, 1440p+AA looks worse/more blurry than native untouched 1440p. But of course some people will prefer a blurry 1440p+AA/DLSS and try calling it 4k.

DLSS is definitely trained per resolution and setting enabled, such as they will train DLSS+RT ON but not DLSS without RT for some resolution. Ultimately DLSS is limited to Nvidia's whim of what they train for what games they support, oh no a game is partnered with AMD... no DLSS for you!

RT performance... poor, what else unfortunately, they need to offer more settings to lower the quality of it so that the effect is not as detailed but still present. Or just make Voxels, please.

The game... I might finally play the Metro series and see what all the fuss is about. To me at the time it seemed like a STALKER clone and made by same people with similar styling of post nuclear/post apocalyptic. It certainly didn't have a reputation for running fast though.


WannaBeOCer: NV and AMD too probably has selective quality made easier at least by NV recently where developers can define how much quality they want per "pixel"/place in the 3D scene. Aka adaptive quality. Both companies have ditches precise rendering long ago and employ endless graphical optimizations/cheats that lower image quality in favor of performance. Some of the old optimizations can still be tuned via driver settings but these newer ones probably won't be since they also depend on developers to implement them and are not enabled automatically for everything.
I'm certainly not a fan of optimizations and cheats that blur the image, I don't mind "lower quality" with less detail as long as edges stay sharp, say lower texture resolution while edges between objects are unaffected.

Last edited by JackCY; 02-15-2019 at 10:30 AM.
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post #38 of 91 (permalink) Old 02-15-2019, 10:38 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post
Snip...
What I'd like to see is when DLSS becomes widely used, how would Nvidia market the performance of their newer releases. Are they going to put some barriers to distinguish between the performances between their new and their old.

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post #39 of 91 (permalink) Old 02-15-2019, 05:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by Silent Scone View Post
Yeah, to suggest tensor cores are a waste of time based purely on DLSS is short sighted.

Also, you most certainly do not need GFE in order to use DLSS.

[Source] I'm using it and do not have it installed lol.
I'm sure that Tenser Cores do have tons of potential in gaming, but we aren't seeing any of it and at this point it's clear that the Tenser Cores on current RTX cards will never amount to anything of practical value outside of their original stated purpose of de noising Ray Traced effects.

It was Nvidia's job to demonstrate the value of their technology, and they failed miserably.
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post #40 of 91 (permalink) Old 02-15-2019, 05:35 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ILoveHighDPI View Post
I'm sure that Tenser Cores do have tons of potential in gaming, but we aren't seeing any of it and at this point it's clear that the Tenser Cores on current RTX cards will never amount to anything of practical value outside of their original stated purpose of de noising Ray Traced effects.

It was Nvidia's job to demonstrate the value of their technology, and they failed miserably.
What can you do with those RTX and Tensor cores besides DLSS and RTX effects, I'm still not clear on that ? I wonder if console and arcade emulators could use them in some way.

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