[The Register] SPOILER alert, literally: Intel CPUs afflicted with simple data-spewing spec-exec vulnerability - Page 3 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community

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[The Register] SPOILER alert, literally: Intel CPUs afflicted with simple data-spewing spec-exec vulnerability

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post #21 of 55 (permalink) Old 03-05-2019, 07:24 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by guttheslayer View Post
There is a video that predict Intel will crush AMD Zen 2 in their next gen CPU.

Basically Sunny Cove is just Core architecture revamp, but that alone will not crush AMD, it is the move to 3D stacking CPU chips that consist of a big core, stack on top 4 smaller cores with very low latency huge cache, and combined with new core architure.


But then again who will buy the expensive Intel with all their security loophole? lol.
That's right, lower latency and large cache. I am more concerned about how they are going to cool those things with hot spots throughout the stack due to heat being trapped.

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post #22 of 55 (permalink) Old 03-05-2019, 08:22 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post
This seems pretty complicated, but it seems like using multiple hits to get timings and then try to rowhammer them would put the data into the L4 cache of a Broadwell-c, which may have different outcomes when it is read in conjunction with data from regular ram, or evicted to regular ram partially through the process. I.E. corrupted nonsense vs a successful hack.
I am sure that it would affect operating frequency but couldn't they have put in a proverbial "speedbump"(for lack of a more appropriate term) prior to the L4 that would disrupt this type of attack? Seems to me a reasonable alternative that could've been implemented after previous hacks of Intel architecture. Shoot even one that would disable the L4 altogether would be a useful feature notifying Administrator of an attack. A sort of if X happens in Y amount of log attempts apply Z outcome?

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post #23 of 55 (permalink) Old 03-05-2019, 11:31 PM
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I wonder how much speed intel gained on cutting corners on hardware security over "somewhat" affected AMD cpus.

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post #24 of 55 (permalink) Old 03-06-2019, 09:28 AM
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Folks, are you aware it's either fast CPU or CPU designed to force user pay for every usage of program, allow only commercial programs (or who's authors paid for certificate), and have design to be part of closed platform easily locked up from its owner.

I'm pretty sure a lot of commercial companies would love to rise price of PC to MAC, and do the same support as Apple. But the lack of security (and by PC being open platform) allows users to prevent that.


Yea, considering DDR4 RAMs were designed as they were, and RAM usage was designed as it was, it's no strange people like AIDA benchmark can get timing of various subcomponents. But I'm worried more about MASSIVE security hole called W10 random remote update, including CIA keyloger and copying all research data sneakingly behind scenes, than about stuff which just screams why didn't you made more stringent internet browser standard (current allows MASSIVE potential security hole called adblock blockers).

Basically properly enforced browser standard would prevent execution of adblock blockers by detecting them as scripts that are trying to avoid detection, or would block scripts as broken scripts that are trying to load nonexisting resource.

Security... There is price of security, it eats more watts to run program in secure environment, than on energy efficient CPU that is also extremely fast. What can be used to block harmful hacks, can be used to block one of last desperate attempts of users to unblock theirs PC from working.


As for that article, I find it bit outrageous researchers didn't bother to test Ryzen. Few decades ago a low paid researcher would run stuff on Saturday on his home computer with Ryzen CPU (which he bought because of curiosity how much AMD improved). Using old AMD designs which were known to be non efficient? When even AMD wasn't able to find how theirs old design wasted CPU cycles, how can an attacker?

I'm more curious how they could write into RAM, than I'm about if Intel can be affected by ROWHAMMER. Also I wonder why DDR4 were released in status that allows this. ROWHAMMER was know for a while, it was plenty of time for RAM manufacturers to improve standard.
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post #25 of 55 (permalink) Old 03-06-2019, 05:11 PM
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post #26 of 55 (permalink) Old 03-06-2019, 05:14 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Raghar View Post
Folks, are you aware it's either fast CPU or CPU designed to force user pay for every usage of program, allow only commercial programs (or who's authors paid for certificate), and have design to be part of closed platform easily locked up from its owner.

I'm pretty sure a lot of commercial companies would love to rise price of PC to MAC, and do the same support as Apple. But the lack of security (and by PC being open platform) allows users to prevent that.


Yea, considering DDR4 RAMs were designed as they were, and RAM usage was designed as it was, it's no strange people like AIDA benchmark can get timing of various subcomponents. But I'm worried more about MASSIVE security hole called W10 random remote update, including CIA keyloger and copying all research data sneakingly behind scenes, than about stuff which just screams why didn't you made more stringent internet browser standard (current allows MASSIVE potential security hole called adblock blockers).

Basically properly enforced browser standard would prevent execution of adblock blockers by detecting them as scripts that are trying to avoid detection, or would block scripts as broken scripts that are trying to load nonexisting resource.

Security... There is price of security, it eats more watts to run program in secure environment, than on energy efficient CPU that is also extremely fast. What can be used to block harmful hacks, can be used to block one of last desperate attempts of users to unblock theirs PC from working.


As for that article, I find it bit outrageous researchers didn't bother to test Ryzen. Few decades ago a low paid researcher would run stuff on Saturday on his home computer with Ryzen CPU (which he bought because of curiosity how much AMD improved). Using old AMD designs which were known to be non efficient? When even AMD wasn't able to find how theirs old design wasted CPU cycles, how can an attacker?

I'm more curious how they could write into RAM, than I'm about if Intel can be affected by ROWHAMMER. Also I wonder why DDR4 were released in status that allows this. ROWHAMMER was know for a while, it was plenty of time for RAM manufacturers to improve standard.



Where does it say they didn't test ryzen?

Quote:
The researchers also examined Arm and AMD processor cores, but found they did not exhibit similar behavior.

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post #27 of 55 (permalink) Old 03-06-2019, 05:20 PM
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Seems to me Intel was going after performance without much focus in security.

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post #28 of 55 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 04:18 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Hueristic View Post
Where does it say they didn't test ryzen?


There.
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post #29 of 55 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 04:35 AM
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I do wonder why they only listed the one AMD CPU. The text in that area of the actual article explains what is going on and how it's Architecture based. So either they simply didn't test Ryzen and it could be affected or... they didn't bother because based on the research they already knew what the outcome would be.

They certainly are showing how through the various Intel families they all have this "leakage". I might have missed it, but since I didn't see any definitive statement about not testing more ARM/AMD chips... it does make me wonder. So I can only ponder that the way ARM/AMD does certain things didn't really change or... they just didn't test more cpu's for reasons unknown.
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post #30 of 55 (permalink) Old 03-07-2019, 06:58 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Digitalwolf View Post
I do wonder why they only listed the one AMD CPU. The text in that area of the actual article explains what is going on and how it's Architecture based. So either they simply didn't test Ryzen and it could be affected or... they didn't bother because based on the research they already knew what the outcome would be.
Or they were requested/paid not to. Or they just didn't have one at hand and didn't bother, since finding it in intel is enough for them to release the paper.
Considering intel were rumoured to pay some no body security firm to try and find a bug in AMD, I wouldn't rule that out until they or someone else, tested other AMD family chips.

Considering the AMD one is from 2012, and a lot has changed with AMD since in term of design, it doesn't make sense not to test at least a cheap one from current gen.


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