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[Wired] Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStation

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post #121 of 127 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 10:15 AM
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true, however how much does the single solution API really bring down cost to perf. ratio? and didn't they pimp PS4 as a 4K box as well? Look how well that turned out. As long as the box can do ANYTHING in 4K, they'll label it a 4K capable device. Even if its just UI interaction.

We're also assuming they can engineer things so well + volume = reducing the cost of 4K by more than 50% to make it viable. I just don't buy it. That's why I'm going with some actual in-game, real time rendered 4K support, but mostly 2K60 fun.

the final straw would be up to the developer, based on the total power package of the device. They'll be left with decisions like I stated before "super shiny 1440p, or not so shiny 4K?" in some titles, the extra FOV of 4K would be favorable to the extra shiny, however it goes both ways.
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post #122 of 127 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 01:32 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by skupples View Post
yes, they sure do, but not to the point where you're gonna squeeze 4K 60FPS into AAA titles, and keep the price below whatever the sweet spot is now (which will be $100 more than last gen)

I'd love to see it, I'd pre-order with proof of guaranteed 4K 60FPS support in 99% of titles.

but its lunacy. This is the shortest step between consoles yet, while the gains will be yuge, they won't be that yuge.

I'd really like to see further investment in the two different sku, a base line console, & a top of the line console, but that doesn't seem to be fitting for the console market. However, I do believe they'll eventually be able to get the price way up on consoles, as the millennial step further into their financial growth years.

2K 60FPS vs. what current consoles are doing, is a large respectable, and realistic step... They'll then follow with the 4K unit in half the time it took them to respond with the ps3>ps4 step.

Why? Money. The kinda hardware needed to get 2K 60FPS going is quite low in comparison to 4K... also, they could just refresh in 2 years with the 4K model, since the step between 1080p and 4K is so large. They'd almost be morons for not trying to cash in on a 1440p box first.

Whatever happens, I don't think the norm will be 4K 60. MAYBE 30 in some titles. A choice in settings would be nice "1440p 60, or 4k 30, you choose!"\

top downs doing 4K 60? Definitely. DOTA & the like can run 4K 120FPS on pretty dated machines... so assuming these kinda titles come to console, then there ya go, there's your "it totally does 4K 60FPS" content.
I think 4KCB/dynamic/60FPS will be very, very common among "console AAA 60 FPS" like CoD, Battlefield, Battlefront, DMC, Fighters, Sports, etc. Consoles are probably gonna push more for 4KCB where it might better to look at for more people than pure native 1920x2160p only. Really depends on whether you consider 4KCB a "4K" res or not.

It'll probably be the more overall package of the visuals that'll matter anyway, like how a hypothetical big budget Sony 1st party game at 4KCB/30FPS game will look much, much better than majority of native 4K/30FPS games of this gen on the One X.

I also think that 2560x1440p titles will be rare and 1920x2160 will be more common where the latter is a higher resolution (more "2K" than 1440p) and will have CB on top to make it even look better for most.

I also think there'd be a lot of improvements for next gen upscaling/cb so that it will have less perceivable artifacts to those that notice them.

Upscaling might play a slightly more important role next gen because their marketing department might think it's very important to do above PS4's typical 1440p/"2K"+CB even if only slightly better/higher but not native 4K.

I don't know but I seriously can't imagine huge next gen Sony titles and big AAA games going any lower than "1920x2160 native + CB (aka 4K CB) / 4KCB with or w/o dynamic res" and 30 FPS or maybe even 3K+CB.

Don't get me wrong though as I'm one of the few that wants to a 1080p + okay-ish AA -target new God of War 2 for the PS5 where shaders, physics, particles/effects, objects/enemies on scene are turned up to 11.
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post #123 of 127 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 02:32 PM
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interesting opinion...

Hadn't even thought of anything like that.

I must also be way behind on my tech, I wasn't aware one X was doing anything at 4K besides UI. 30fps anything is abysmal though, as a developer I'd be more concerned with upping my frame rates than my resolution.

I still don't see "3840x2160" 4K being common.

I do like your opinion of scaling.. However, I'm not aware of this "cb" thing you keep mentioning, i'm gonna have to get to googling.

I'm 100% with you for overall effect & image quality being more important than sheer resolution for anything that isn't competitive.
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post #124 of 127 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 03:29 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by skupples View Post
interesting opinion...

Hadn't even thought of anything like that.

I must also be way behind on my tech, I wasn't aware one X was doing anything at 4K besides UI. 30fps anything is abysmal though, as a developer I'd be more concerned with upping my frame rates than my resolution.

I still don't see "3840x2160" 4K being common.

I do like your opinion of scaling.. However, I'm not aware of this "cb" thing you keep mentioning, i'm gonna have to get to googling.

I'm 100% with you for overall effect & image quality being more important than sheer resolution for anything that isn't competitive.
cb just means checkerboarding. Just some fancy shmancy upscaling supposedly started by Sony's Killzone devs. They're not all equal. Some have better cb implementation.

check image here to get some quick summary of the impact:

https://cdn3.dualshockers.com/wp-con...2_47_43-PM.jpg

it does have some weird sawtoothing artifacts in motion but some say most will not be able to notice it when playing and at a reasonable distance.

"What can PC learn from PS4 Pro?"


Guerilla checkerboard:

https://cdn3.dualshockers.com/wp-con...2_47_43-PM.jpg

https://www.dualshockers.com/guerril...-checkerboard/

There's artifacting but I bet the average joe won't find it too bad then again this is all subjective. I am guessing that if AMD, Sony and MS invests in it, people won't be able to tell 3K+CB to a native 4K set unless they start pixel counting or doing zooms like digital foundry.

Afaik, dynamic res was also popularized through consoles but I have a feeling everything started on PC anyway.

All about maximizing hardware to visuals ratio.

8K on the PS5 will mostly be fluff imo but I wouldn't be surprised if there are some PS4 back compat. titles that do dynamic 8K CB at 30 FPS. Maybe visuals punching quite above 4K native + okay-ish AA.

Yeah, dual SKU can make sense out of the gate. The market has proven they are willing to consume it. Even Sony is still so arrogant with the 30-40% weaker, no 4K BluRay, PS4 Pro pricing while the 1X is selling the same price and bundled for a while now.

As someone who prefers Sony on the console space, I hope MS does so much better next round to keep Sony on their toes and in check.

Last edited by tubers; 04-26-2019 at 03:38 PM.
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post #125 of 127 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 04:43 PM
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very interesting, thanks!

I've been trying to bide my time ever since keplar, when we realized DX11 was dying. I don't think we're gonna see anything truly innovative hardware or software wise until the next gen of console comes. Until then, garbage refreshes & tiny gains are something to be expected as there's no reason to do otherwise.

so based on that, I truly hope the consoles come out blasting 4K with cray 8K background explosions, n other stuff, cuz that just means better things for everyone in the gamesphere. I'm just not holding my breath. PS4/XB1 are just now doing what they told us they would do out the gate, in their final revs.
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post #126 of 127 (permalink) Old 04-26-2019, 10:22 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by skupples View Post
very interesting, thanks!

I've been trying to bide my time ever since keplar, when we realized DX11 was dying. I don't think we're gonna see anything truly innovative hardware or software wise until the next gen of console comes. Until then, garbage refreshes & tiny gains are something to be expected as there's no reason to do otherwise.

so based on that, I truly hope the consoles come out blasting 4K with cray 8K background explosions, n other stuff, cuz that just means better things for everyone in the gamesphere. I'm just not holding my breath. PS4/XB1 are just now doing what they told us they would do out the gate, in their final revs.
IMO, it's only proper to be skeptical. Even Sony has plenty of fake footages from early builds/reworked encounters where retail can seem inferior BUT they're nowhere near as bad as other devs like ubi or still do prerendered custcenes like Gears of War 4.

I think you're also still right that focusing on 2K (or 2K cb'd to 4K) would have a more substantial visual upgrade than 4K native.

The only wild card we have now is the supposed Ray Tracing because honestly, consoles "set the base standards" for the public and big developers even if PC always "raises the bar".

It'd help quicken RT adoption even if AMD on consoles will likely have inferior compute units/Tensors for some RT. AFAIK from an old thread in Beyond3D, AMD can make their own Tensor cores, as Google has but likely not perform as good as Nvidia's but it's gonna be more about pricing anyway. Tensors aren't just specific for Nvidia. Not sure if that's right though.

Just a gut feeling again but I think AMD's APUs for console will have a GPU that's a bit worse or about the same as the RTX 2060 in raw compute for both raster and RT. CPU's the one that's gonna get quite the boost due to how crappy this gen's Jaguars are, supposedly.
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post #127 of 127 (permalink) Old 04-28-2019, 06:12 PM
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I think it’s important to differentiate between Checkerboarding and other methods of Upscaling.
Yes, you could just call Checkerboarding “Interlacing At 45 Degrees”, but that’s half the point, your display is created in an X/Y pattern, almost everything that people build is in an X/Y pattern, and most movement relative to your point of view is in an X/Y pattern (unless you’re playing games with zero gravity environments, but even then your tendency will be to find an X/Y orientation).
Even though everything moving at an angle toward the corner of your screen will be just as aliased with Checkerboarding as objects would be moving horizontally on a screen with basic Interlacing, the circumstance of things moving directly toward the corner of your screen is far less common.
In moment to moment gameplay “Angular Interlacing”, AKA “Checkerboarding” should provide far less aliasing.

On top of this if we could start making game engines that draw alternating lines, as the old CRT TVs did, you’d have a 100% native resolution image with every second frame. At 120hz I dare say it would be near impossible to detect.
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