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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-31-2019, 08:27 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post
actually the stubble in front being utilized for powerpins would still allow backwards compatibility in both ways.
that stubble doesn't have a trace whatsoever and is only used to block the card from slotting into PCI slots.



so you'd have two directions this could be plugged.
old card into new slot would only mean the stubble with insert half-way into the slot, no physical contact on the slot's pins.
new card into old slot would leave the now longer and pinned stubble dangling in the air, a plastic protection cap could be applied to prevent short-circuits so theres no issue in this regard.
Derp. That's actually exactly where i was imagining that the pins could go too. I thought you were talking about the small notch that's cut into the pin area. lol. We are indeed on the same page then.

Quote: Originally Posted by looniam View Post
sorry about your aesthetics guys, but external cables (molex/peg connector) provide 2x to 5x the power a motherboard feasibly can deliver.

its just incoming pretty gold connectors, to put it vastly simplified.
There's no practical physical limit to how much current a motherboard can carry . The limits come in the form of the ATX standard, which is absolutly ancient and in dire need of at least a revision, if not an entire overhaul.

Eliminating the need for nearly every AIB ever to have its own direct connection the PSU would go a lot futther than JUST aesthetics (although it would certainly be a boon there as well). It would also make hardware installation far easier. It would make cable management easier. It would allow for slightly smaller cases and improve thermals. Honestly the only reason NOT to do it is to save a few bucks on motherboards, but much of that extra cost will be offset by lower costs on the PSU side.

While we're at it, SATA power really ought to be routed through the mobo as well, so we can eliminate the need to have drives of any sort plugged into the power supply. Ideally, a PSU ought to have one big beefy connection to a motherboard, and that's it. Everything else can have its power distributed through the board and whatever interconnect is needed. Maybe an optional modular port or two for extremely high powered AIBs or "exotic" hardware like water pumps.

Heck, in many modern systems, we're practically already there (iGPU or sub-75w GPU, m.2 storage, pwm fans connected directly to the motherboard). The only cables that are strictly needed from the PSU are the mobo 24 pin and the cpu 4/8 pin. It wouldnt take much to revise the standard and have those combined into a single 32 pin. Throw in a few more for additional pci and sata power and the jobs already done.

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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-31-2019, 08:39 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ozlay View Post
Most GPU's don't even need more then a single 8pin anyways. As a single 8pin can provide up to 400w. As long as you have a good quality PSU.
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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-31-2019, 08:51 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Zero4549 View Post
No the problem is backwards/forwards compatibility. By adding more pins *anywhere*, they would be forcing the loss of compatibility in one direction or other going forward. Personally I say that's ok, as its been a VERY long time since the physical slot has changed, and no one in their right mind is going to be using 2003 AICs in a 2021 mobo or vice versa.
I'm not too sold on it to be honest. Sure it might be ok for 1 slot, but once you start pushing 300 watts (a pair of 6+2 pin connectors) to 4 slots, that's a ton of power running through the motherboard itself and bound to make it extremely difficult to build without at least some interference.

If you are just gonna put all those power connectors on the board instead of the cards then you still have the cable management issues and now you have pretty much ensured that the only way to get 2 or more GPU's is to go with an E-ATX board due to all the space those connectors are gonna eat up.

Maybe once SATA gives up the ghost freeing up some space though it might be more feasible.



edit: Now if you wanna just up the power a little to all the slots so that more lower power GPU's can ship without power connectors, I'm totes on board there, just not with throwing out the PCIE power connector to GPU standard all together is all.



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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-31-2019, 09:17 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Zero4549 View Post
Spoiler!




There's no practical physical limit to how much current a motherboard can carry .
Spoiler!
lolwut?

heat generation and electrical interference would like to have a word w/you.

btw, with the pci-e 4.0 standard has also come specs for more external power connections, rising the limit to 300+ watts as the previous 225 watts limited was already exceeded. though with your POV i can see why people though it referred to the slot

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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-31-2019, 09:30 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by DNMock View Post
I'm not too sold on it to be honest. Sure it might be ok for 1 slot, but once you start pushing 300 watts (a pair of 6+2 pin connectors) to 4 slots, that's a ton of power running through the motherboard itself and bound to make it extremely difficult to build without at least some interference.

If you are just gonna put all those power connectors on the board instead of the cards then you still have the cable management issues and now you have pretty much ensured that the only way to get 2 or more GPU's is to go with an E-ATX board due to all the space those connectors are gonna eat up.

Maybe once SATA gives up the ghost freeing up some space though it might be more feasible.



edit: Now if you wanna just up the power a little to all the slots so that more lower power GPU's can ship without power connectors, I'm totes on board there, just not with throwing out the PCIE power connector to GPU standard all together is all.
I'd suggest starting with doubling the PCI-E slot power standard from 75w to 150w, drop the 6pin auxilary PCI-E connector, and keep the 8pin for the rare card that actually draws more than 150w (yes, the medium and high end GPUs we all love here are indeed RARE in the grand scheme of computers). That would barely require any changes other than a few more pins added to the slot. Easy stuff there that will cut out a HUGE number of cables

As for everything else, theres really no reason we couldn't eliminate the rest of the cables, but it would require a much large change to the ATX standard and would require much more cooperation from industry players, as well as causing a short but valid pain point for end users while the new and old standards briefly coexist. I'm personally all for making that push, but I'd gladly settle for smaller incremental changes like the one i mentioned above instead, if that's all the industry was willing to do.


To address some of the specific points you mentioned:

multi-GPU is already practically dead, and it literally never made sense for low or mid tier GPUs to begin with (the type that would actually be drawing their power off the interconnect). The only scenario where this might actually be an issue is with dedicated mining or other heavy GPU compute systems, and there are already special made motherboards and various other solutions for those rather exotic and specific systems.

Interfearance and enlarged motherboards are a total non-issue. Boards can be made a few layers thicker to allow more traces without getting particularly close to anything sensitive. Better yet, the back side of most motherboards are completely unused, and could easily support shielded surface conductors physically isolated from the board by a small air gap, and would only contact the board in at their beginning and end points.

Keep in mind that boards with 5 pci-e slots are already by standard capable of putting a total of 375w through pci-e. that's already more than the total power consumption of most entire computers. Simply routing more of those power traces to the 2 "GPU" slots and less to the remaining slots would already go a long way to solving the problem without budgeting any more total current carrying capacity whatsoever. I don't suggest this of course, as there are easy solutions to allow every slot to get a full 150w capacity, but it goes to show that even current motherboards can supply a huge ammount of power, and are simply not configured in a way that lends itself to typical modern usage (one or two power hungry cards, rather than the ancient paradigm behind the ATX and subsequently PCI-E standard of having a half dozen very low powered cards)

Quote: Originally Posted by looniam View Post
lolwut?

heat generation and electrical interference would like to have a word w/you.

btw, with the pci-e 4.0 standard has also come specs for more external power connections, rising the limit to 300+ watts as the previous 225 watts limited was already exceeded. though with your POV i can see why people though it referred to the slot

pro tip:
a motherboard is a SIGNAL BUS not a power supply/service panel!
Oh really? So the hundreds of watts that are already distributed through a motherboard are purely signaling? Gee, that's facinating.

No, the motherboard is not merely a signal bus. It is the platform which supports anything and everything we choose to throw at it. The only reason so many various power connections external to the motherboard even exist is because the standards that boards are beholden to moves far slower than the computer industry as a whole. Computers got more fans and more drives, and thus molex and floppy and 3/4 pin fan connectors cropped up to address this sudden need for power that wasnt factored into the AT standard. The ATX standard finally rolled aound in the 90s to bring things more in line with how computers were actually being used, and we got the 20 pin. Then we needed more and we tacked on a 4 pin, then a 6 pin, then sata drives became a thing and we tacked on data power, then AGP started eating more power and fan headers started moving onto motherboards and adding even more supplemental power to the board was getting absurd and we threw out all the old board connections in favor of the fancy new 24 pin we all know and love today... and guess what? That was 16 years ago. now we've got even more cabled added to the mix, not because we couldn't make a more elegant solution, but because we didn't standardize one quickly enough and by the time the next revision to the standard rolled around 4 years later the various janky temporary solutions had already proliferated the industry and were absurbed into the standard rather than replaced. Simply put, computers standards today are a result of years of bloat between new standards, rather than a product of intelligent design. Its time to change those standards to reflect the needs of 2019, not 1989.

No, I dont think that you can put 225 not 300w through the slot currently (nor did I ever say that, perhaps read before typing), I think we should be able to put more than 75w through the slot as cards in excess of 75w are extremely common and the limiting factor to doing so is adhearance to the current standards rather than an inability to physically supply said currenty through a minimally redesigned and still backwards compatible interface.

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post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-31-2019, 09:51 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Zero4549 View Post
I'd suggest starting with doubling the PCI-E slot power standard from 75w to 150w, drop the 6pin auxilary PCI-E connector, and keep the 8pin for the rare card that actually draws more than 150w (yes, the medium and high end GPUs we all love here are indeed RARE in the grand scheme of computers). That would barely require any changes other than a few more pins added to the slot. Easy stuff there that will cut out a HUGE number of cables

As for everything else, theres really no reason we couldn't eliminate the rest of the cables, but it would require a much large change to the ATX standard and would require much more cooperation from industry players, as well as causing a short but valid pain point for end users while the new and old standards briefly coexist. I'm personally all for making that push, but I'd gladly settle for smaller incremental changes like the one i mentioned above instead, if that's all the industry was willing to do.


To address some of the specific points you mentioned:

multi-GPU is already practically dead, and it literally never made sense for low or mid tier GPUs to begin with (the type that would actually be drawing their power off the interconnect). The only scenario where this might actually be an issue is with dedicated mining or other heavy GPU compute systems, and there are already special made motherboards and various other solutions for those rather exotic and specific systems.[/SPOILER]

Interfearance and enlarged motherboards are a total non-issue. Boards can be made a few layers thicker to allow more traces without getting particularly close to anything sensitive. Better yet, the back side of most motherboards are completely unused, and could easily support shielded surface conductors physically isolated from the board by a small air gap, and would only contact the board in at their beginning and end points.

Keep in mind that boards with 5 pci-e slots are already by standard capable of putting a total of 375w through pci-e. that's already more than the total power consumption of most entire computers. Simply routing more of those power traces to the 2 "GPU" slots and less to the remaining slots would already go a long way to solving the problem without budgeting any more total current carrying capacity whatsoever. I don't suggest this of course, as there are easy solutions to allow every slot to get a full 150w capacity, but it goes to show that even current motherboards can supply a huge ammount of power, and are simply not configured in a way that lends itself to typical modern usage (one or two power hungry cards, rather than the ancient paradigm behind the ATX and subsequently PCI-E standard of having a half dozen very low powered cards)
to address you point(s):
increasing trace size ALSO mean increasing the distance between traces.

those 5 slot (most less as 4 isn't anything like standard except workstations) use supplemental power connections, molex/PEG, that run through traces other than the 24 pin ATX connection - BIG difference. but funny how you start saying multi gpus are dead but somehow they matter.

i shouldn't be amazed because every thread that has anything related to pci-e specs always has somebody ranting and talking silly stuff.

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Last edited by looniam; 05-31-2019 at 09:56 PM.
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post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-31-2019, 10:11 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by looniam View Post
i shouldn't be amazed because every thread that has anything related to pci-e specs always has somebody ranting and talking silly stuff.
right, speaking of ranting, how about making x8 slots a standard instead of the full x16 slots?
the primary GPU slot aside, if we could make all slots physically x8 long we'd be able to free up a lot of board space for more M.2 slots.

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post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-31-2019, 10:16 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post
right, speaking of ranting, how about making x8 slots a standard instead of the full x16 slots?
the primary GPU slot aside, if we could make all slots physically x8 long we'd be able to free up a lot of board space for more M.2 slots.
Careful now, wouldn't wanna have a rational and interesting discussion about a topic. That would be loony. Some grumpy old pedant might pull his head out of the sand and see your utter nonsense long enough to have a heart attack over the concept of anything ever progressing beyond the most minor of iterative changes!

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post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-31-2019, 10:27 PM
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yeah really interesting discussion.

get a clue.

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post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 05-31-2019, 10:40 PM
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Hurr durr I don't actually know what the other person is saying nor do I have any real refutation but I don't like confusing big boy talk to I'm going to fall back on logical fallacy and personal attacks and hope people think I sound cool.



(Did I get that right? I'm not quite versed in this brave new form of debate)

Systems: Fukurou | Prodigy | Tempest | ArcaneServers: Minecraft SMP | Logs: Build Log - Arcane | Video Logs: Project Arcane
Quote:Originally Posted by Zen00 https://www.overclock.net/img/forum/go_quote.gifZero, you are a master story teller, I am sleep now. http://files.overclock.net/images/smilies/thumb.gif
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Last edited by Zero4549; 05-31-2019 at 10:47 PM.
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