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[TomsHW]AMD Files Patent for Hybrid Ray Tracing Solution

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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 02:10 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Kpjoslee View Post
DX ray tracing and Ray tracing on Vulkan fully supports Nvidia's approach so I don't expect that to be a problem. Both PS4 and Xbox one has AMD GPU yet majority of games on PC side is still more favored on Nvidia side, so I don't expect that to change for next generation.
There is no Nvidia's approach. Nvidia will support it. That's the point. Unfortunate that mindshare has you to believe otherwise.

Did you realize that AMD commands how games are developed? No, you don't sigh.
Developer now develop their engines to work with consoles 1st. Not PC's 1st. That's where the revenue/profit is.
AMD is the only hardware in town for consoles. Therefore, developers will code for console 1st then port back to PC 2nd. MS is already planning to port games via powershell. That's going to be a huge game changer. So yeah, expect their to be problems for nvidia owners come next gen.

Quote:
When you download State of Decay, the oddities begin immediately. Instead of downloading from the Microsoft Store server, serverdl.microsoft.com, where all content comes from including PlayAnywhere titles, the game downloads from assets1.xboxlive.com.

When you extract the installer from the Store after downloading, you will discover that it is using the .xvc file format. While that may not sound familiar, Microsoft introduced this format around 2013 specifically for Xbox One games. Further, you can now install this file format using PowerShell in 19H1; I never thought I would write the words “PowerShell can now install Xbox One games” but here we are.

When you install State of Decay, you get a legacy DX installation setup prompt that does a classic, non-sandboxed, and non-store based installation of DirectX dependencies to your system directory. You can see what this looks like in the screenshot at the top of the post.
https://www.thurrott.com/xbox/200140...-step-forward#

Moves are being made...moves are being made. It is self explanatory but to be clear there is no Nvidia xbox.

Now what about Sony..You know...the ones who partnered with AMD for Navi? Looks like they are also looking into Ray Tracing (THEIR WAY). Oh BTW, Polyphony (Creators of Gran Turismo) are closer to Sony as a partner then EVGA is to Nvidia...for reference. Will we see AAA Sony titlesg PC from Sony...if so...oh my that will be huge news. I doubt it though but worth a thought since those who buy Navi10/Navi20/NBavi21 will already have the hardware...but i digress. But in any case this proves that consoles aren't doing it "nvidia's way"
Link: https://wccftech.com/gran-turismo-polyphony-raytracing/


Nvidia is boosting full ray tracing support. Which we know can't be done right now even with a 2080TI. You might get just global illumination in one game. You might get just reflections in another. Or you might get shadows in another game. Heck, you might combo. For example: refraction and shows. Or refractions and reflections. Point is you won't get all the aspects of ray tracing in one game and still get 60+ FPS above 1080p resolution.

AMD has been and will be implementing a hybrid solution. Something different from Nvidia's bolstering (and not delivering). What I've been reading is that AMD, along with other partners are coming up with a hybrid solution (because of consoles).

What exactly that will be will remain to be seen. But if I were to guess I wouldn't be surprised to see all aspects or, more common, most aspects of ray tracing being applied EVEN ON consoles. Like for example
https://www.cryengine.com/news/cryte...-for-cryengine

Quiz. Do you think Crytek is developing this engine exclusively for PC only? Just wondering.
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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 02:28 PM
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their way to do MS stuff... you seem to miss that part.

Ray Tracing is the MS standard they're all developing random solutions for to support. One will eventually rein supreme, clearly... But it all ends up doing the same thing. Support M$ ray tracing standard that's being implemented in these new titles.

what you've been reading? You mean the readily available info in this thread, and multiple other toppers?

also, what? NV Xbox? No one ever mentioned an NVidia Xbox. AMD didn't have to re-up for the XB5/PS5 contract you silly. They were already locked in from the first time around.

porting via powershell, cool! how does that build up to this strange err of nvidia doom & gloom+ AMD & others conspiracy? Put the adderrall & the prisonplanet.com down man!

derp.

PCs, PS4, Xbox1, XboxHarlot, PS5 = all on PC hardware you big dope.

What you really mean to say is consoles dictate the restraints of modern gaming for the entire ecosystem, including PC. That line is however much smaller than it used to be (PC Vs. Xb360 for example) thanks to consoles now just being chuck full of specialty mobile gaming parts with super dialed in DX based apis.

Is this a win for AMD? Yes, however, can that win actually translate into being able to compete with Nvidia in the top notch of PC Gaming? Does it mean that'll trickle down to PCs? WE ALL HOPE!

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Last edited by skupples; 07-01-2019 at 02:35 PM.
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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 02:38 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by EastCoast View Post
There is no Nvidia's approach. Nvidia will support it. That's the point. Unfortunate that mindshare has you to believe otherwise.

Did you realize that AMD commands how games are developed? No, you don't sigh.
Developer now develop their engines to work with consoles 1st. Not PC's 1st. That's where the revenue/profit is.
AMD is the only hardware in town for consoles. Therefore, developers will code for console 1st then port back to PC 2nd. MS is already planning to port games via powershell. That's going to be a huge game changer. So yeah, expect their to be problems for nvidia owners come next gen.


https://www.thurrott.com/xbox/200140...-step-forward#

Moves are being made...moves are being made. It is self explanatory but to be clear there is no Nvidia xbox.

Now what about Sony..You know...the ones who partnered with AMD for Navi? Looks like they are also looking into Ray Tracing (THEIR WAY). Oh BTW, Polyphony (Creators of Gran Turismo) are closer to Sony as a partner then EVGA is to Nvidia...for reference. Will we see AAA Sony titlesg PC from Sony...if so...oh my that will be huge news. I doubt it though but worth a thought since those who buy Navi10/Navi20/NBavi21 will already have the hardware...but i digress. But in any case this proves that consoles aren't doing it "nvidia's way"
Link: https://wccftech.com/gran-turismo-polyphony-raytracing/


Nvidia is boosting full ray tracing support. Which we know can't be done right now even with a 2080TI. You might get just global illumination in one game. You might get just reflections in another. Or you might get shadows in another game. Heck, you might combo. For example: refraction and shows. Or refractions and reflections. Point is you won't get all the aspects of ray tracing in one game and still get 60+ FPS above 1080p resolution.

AMD has been and will be implementing a hybrid solution. Something different from Nvidia's bolstering (and not delivering). What I've been reading is that AMD, along with other partners are coming up with a hybrid solution (because of consoles).

What exactly that will be will remain to be seen. But if I were to guess I wouldn't be surprised to see all aspects or, more common, most aspects of ray tracing being applied EVEN ON consoles. Like for example
https://www.cryengine.com/news/cryte...-for-cryengine

Quiz. Do you think Crytek is developing this engine exclusively for PC only? Just wondering.
DxR is a hybrid ray tracing solution. nvidia's been working on hybrid ray tracing since 2008 with the release of OptiX in 2009. nVidia finally decided on a hardware approach which is to use dedicated hardware to accelerate BVH and ray / triangle intersection calculations. The question is will developers support their RT cores when developers start to develope games for the new consoles? The answer is yes since DxR already supports RT cores out of the box. Games will miss out on DLSS support if developers do not utilize the RTX platform when developing. Both AMD and nVidia decided on a BVH API(DxR) when Microsoft was working on a Ray Tracing API.

That Crytek demo provides less detail than DxR and they already announced it runs faster when using RT cores.

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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 02:42 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by EastCoast View Post
There is no Nvidia's approach. Nvidia will support it. That's the point. Unfortunate that mindshare has you to believe otherwise.

Did you realize that AMD commands how games are developed? No, you don't sigh.
Developer now develop their engines to work with consoles 1st. Not PC's 1st. That's where the revenue/profit is.
AMD is the only hardware in town for consoles. Therefore, developers will code for console 1st then port back to PC 2nd. MS is already planning to port games via powershell. That's going to be a huge game changer. So yeah, expect their to be problems for nvidia owners come next gen.
I don't think so. Nvidia had a major part on developing DX ray tracing and Vulkan ray tracing. When games include ray tracing using those APIs, it will be working on dedicated hardware for Nvidia, since it is already laid there.
Consoles has been all AMD (exception of Switch) since 2013, yet PC games are mostly well optimized for Nvidia hardware, because they are working with those major developers to make sure it works well on their hardware. As long as PC games are running on standard APIs like DX11, DX12, and Vulkan, you will still see more Nvidia favored titles on PC front.

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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 02:52 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by WannaBeOCer View Post
DxR is a hybrid ray tracing solution. nvidia's been working on hybrid ray tracing since 2008 with the release of OptiX in 2009. nVidia finally decided on a hardware approach which is to use dedicated hardware to accelerate BVH and ray / triangle intersection calculations. The question is will developers support their RT cores when developers start to develope games for the new consoles? The answer is yes since DxR already supports RT cores out of the box. Games will miss out on DLSS support if developers do not utilize the RTX platform when developing. Both AMD and nVidia decided on a BVH API(DxR) when Microsoft was working on a Ray Tracing API.

That Crytek demo provides less detail than DxR and they already announced it runs faster when using RT cores.
That's a specious claim, the attempt is to incorporate all aspects of ray tracing not just 1.
The technology itself predates 2008. Furthermore, it was never exclusive on just uArch, GPU, API or company. The only thing exclusive, which you are abtuse about in the title of this thread, is that Nv approach is specific hardware for it. Not a hybrid solution. This is were you argument fails flat. We aren't talking about what Microsoft is doing we are talking about what Nvidia is doing.

Quote: Originally Posted by Kpjoslee View Post
I don't think so. Consoles has been all AMD (exception of Switch) since 2013, yet PC games are mostly well optimized for Nvidia hardware, because they are working with those major developers to make sure it works well on their hardware. As long as PC games are running on standard APIs like DX11, DX12, and Vulkan, you will still see more Nvidia favored titles on PC front.
You are skirting around the fact that AMD dominates in the Game Development do to console exclusivity!
Sure, I disagree with AMD open end policy on game development. Sure, I disagree that they've not flexed their muscle on this but it doesn't change the fact that AMD dominate mindhshare with developers. With powershell, specifically, along with hybrid ray tracing (for consoles ported back to PC via powershell) things will change IMO.

Therefore, there are a few key factors which show the difference...a progression between then and now.
Those games were locked to Powershell.
Sony didn't work exclusively with AMD for Navi
And consoles didn't have the ability to ray trace yet.

Last edited by EastCoast; 07-01-2019 at 03:14 PM.
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post #16 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 03:01 PM
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Meh, give me 3D back or better VR support. PLEASE. None of this 2D 4K HDR raytracing thing makes much of a difference for immersion for me

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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 03:06 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by EastCoast View Post
That's a specious claim, the attempt is to incorporate all aspects of ray tracing not just 1.
The technology itself predates 2008. Furthermore, it was never exclusive on just uArch, GPU, API or company. The only thing exclusive, which you are abtuse about in the title of this thread, is that Nv approach is specific hardware for it. Not a hybrid solution. This is were you argument fails flat. We aren't talking about what Microsoft is doing we are talking about what Nvidia is doing.
I re-read the OP and yes I am wrong. nVidia isn't using a hybrid solution but hardware. nVidia's RT core extensions are already in DxR API so any game using DxR will benefit from RT cores.

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post #18 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 03:14 PM
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congrats you debunked a conspiracy theorist post. I wish Alexa Jonessa was here to see this.

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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 03:45 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by skupples View Post
their way to do MS stuff... you seem to miss that part.
You didn't realize, if you actually read my post, that Sony is too looking into Ray Tracing.
There is no "MS way". LOL

Quote: Originally Posted by skupples View Post
derp.
An old meme but very fitting to your post.

Quote: Originally Posted by skupples View Post
PCs, PS4, Xbox1, XboxHarlot, PS5 = all on PC hardware you big dope.
Another derp comes to mind as their really is no point to this. "Derp" Next gen consoles will be exactly like Xbox1/PS4. /s

Quote: Originally Posted by skupples View Post
What you really mean to say is consoles dictate the restraints of modern gaming for the entire ecosystem, including PC. That line is however much smaller than it used to be (PC Vs. Xb360 for example) thanks to consoles now just being chuck full of specialty mobile gaming parts with super dialed in DX based apis.
No, that's incorrectly, it's an snobbish, elitist incorrect view point. Development for games on console have dominated the market for many years now.

Quote: Originally Posted by skupples View Post
Is this a win for AMD? Yes, however, can that win actually translate into being able to compete with Nvidia in the top notch of PC Gaming? Does it mean that'll trickle down to PCs? WE ALL HOPE!
You do realize that Intel incoming...Derp?




Quote: Originally Posted by WannaBeOCer View Post
I re-read the OP and yes I am wrong. nVidia isn't using a hybrid solution but hardware. nVidia's RT core extensions are already in DxR API so any game using DxR will benefit from RT cores.
Stated again for clarity to my original post.
Quote:
Now, what I was getting at before, was how this hybrid solution will be leveraged.

One example is AMD's fully parallel approach (2 or more calculations happen simultaneously) while Nv still believes in concurrent execution (2 or more calculations happen within a certain time frame) with pre-emption, etc.

Edit:
I wonder if AMD will go full parallel programming on consoles and simply port them over to PC using Power Shell?





Quote: Originally Posted by skupples View Post
congrats you debunked a conspiracy theorist post. I wish Alexa Jonessa was here to see this.
Not sure who that is. I have heard of Alex Jones though.

Last edited by EastCoast; 07-01-2019 at 04:19 PM.
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post #20 of 30 (permalink) Old 07-01-2019, 10:04 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by bigjdubb View Post
All this effort being spent on ray tracing is sort of frustrating. I don't feel like lighting has been the weak point in game visuals for a while. If all this effort was being put towards making textures amazing to look at and and perform even better then I could understand the reasoning.

It feels like they are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist.
increasing texture is directly related to how big the textures are being rendered, and how complex they are.
And that performance won't make huge leaps any time soon, as the technology is old and while they are trying to improve it with every iteration (more rendering cores, faster cores, and more memory), lighting also makes a big part of the visual aid of a scene, not just textures.
It adds more realism through shadows and reflections that aren't just texture based.
Textures alone doesn't make an environment great.


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