[AnandTech] Toshiba & WD NAND Production Hit By Power Outage: 6 Exabytes Lost - Page 7 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community

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[AnandTech] Toshiba & WD NAND Production Hit By Power Outage: 6 Exabytes Lost

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post #61 of 70 (permalink) Old 07-07-2019, 12:07 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post
Please. The NSA doesn't have to hide the hard drives it buys. It's not exactly secret information.

They don't have to, but they do, just like they did back with the Utah DC expansion and HDD at the time. Why? Because the NSA likes to keep everything they do secret. Also, in terms of power consumption people keep talking about, we have data centers in excess of 100MW of power usage, I believe China's primary DC is something around 150 MW of power usage.

Oh, and I went and did some Sat View digging on the plant in question, took a few minutes to get their physical location;

https://www.google.com/maps/place/To...7!4d136.609818

Not only does the plant in question have TWO power stations on site for power generation, but there is a 3rd not that far away they could easily have as a tertiary/partial supply. Does everyone want to believe they had complete power failure from THREE possible locations to the point that they would have to scrap an entire 1.5 months supply, as an "accident"?


EDIT:

The points being driven home here are;

1) We have the technologies to handle these levels of power consumption, it isn't terribly new, we have it in place elsewhere. In places where a 13 minute complete outage, like a core Data Center for a region, costs BILLIONS upon BILLIONS in lost revenues across the various business that require that connection; banking, stock trading, PoS machines, gas stations! Again, if you take the scale equivalent of this claimed event to our global infrastructure the amount of money lost would dwarf this NAND loss.

2) Self power generation has been a thing for nearly 100 years. In the timber industry mills had wood fired power plants that generated not only enough power for their facilities, but excess power they could sell back to the local companies for a small profit. This was going back over the last 100 years. Not on a state of the art fabrication facility with no less than 3 possible sources of power. (Edit for the dense: No, I am not claiming wood fired plants would power a new Fab)

3) If this event did happen it sure as Hell wasn't an "accident", you just don't accidentally blow through these kind of systems. Power loss in a nation that has very, very, stable power. At a Fab with two power plants and a 3rd near by? Hell, there is even a Propane supply NEXT to their building, likely generators of some fashion - not for the Fab process itself, likely the auxiliary systems in the Fab.

Last edited by PostalTwinkie; 07-07-2019 at 12:21 PM.
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post #62 of 70 (permalink) Old 07-07-2019, 01:45 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post
They don't have to, but they do, just like they did back with the Utah DC expansion and HDD at the time. Why? Because the NSA likes to keep everything they do secret. Also, in terms of power consumption people keep talking about, we have data centers in excess of 100MW of power usage, I believe China's primary DC is something around 150 MW of power usage.

Oh, and I went and did some Sat View digging on the plant in question, took a few minutes to get their physical location;

https://www.google.com/maps/place/To...7!4d136.609818

Not only does the plant in question have TWO power stations on site for power generation, but there is a 3rd not that far away they could easily have as a tertiary/partial supply. Does everyone want to believe they had complete power failure from THREE possible locations to the point that they would have to scrap an entire 1.5 months supply, as an "accident"?


EDIT:

The points being driven home here are;

1) We have the technologies to handle these levels of power consumption, it isn't terribly new, we have it in place elsewhere. In places where a 13 minute complete outage, like a core Data Center for a region, costs BILLIONS upon BILLIONS in lost revenues across the various business that require that connection; banking, stock trading, PoS machines, gas stations! Again, if you take the scale equivalent of this claimed event to our global infrastructure the amount of money lost would dwarf this NAND loss.

2) Self power generation has been a thing for nearly 100 years. In the timber industry mills had wood fired power plants that generated not only enough power for their facilities, but excess power they could sell back to the local companies for a small profit. This was going back over the last 100 years. Not on a state of the art fabrication facility with no less than 3 possible sources of power. (Edit for the dense: No, I am not claiming wood fired plants would power a new Fab)

3) If this event did happen it sure as Hell wasn't an "accident", you just don't accidentally blow through these kind of systems. Power loss in a nation that has very, very, stable power. At a Fab with two power plants and a 3rd near by? Hell, there is even a Propane supply NEXT to their building, likely generators of some fashion - not for the Fab process itself, likely the auxiliary systems in the Fab.

I'm trying to find the power stations, I see the building that says "Propane Supplier"...that could be for anything and I see a waste water plant, that's the section with the 5 open top tanks. In the sewage plant that I sometimes do maintenance work, they call those Clarifiers. Everything else looks like chemical processing to me. There would also be a substation, which I can't find either.

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post #63 of 70 (permalink) Old 07-08-2019, 12:49 AM
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As I said before search for power plant and they show up on the map, look around in satellite view.

I don't see any power plants directly on site. Those are some chemical processing "plants" areas, all those tanks and pipes. "Japan Air Liquide Yokkaichi Gas Center"
Probably some giant slug crawled into their electrical box to get grilled. One did that with their trains, causing unheard of delays and so on.

Japan does have environmental issues and Yokkaichi power outage is nothing new. There is another report on 18th from a different company, though it's really hard to search this stuff in English.

Tsuruga nuclear plant, out of service, built on a fault line and old as hell now.
Mihama, out of service.
Ōi operational.
Takahama operational.

And after 2011 their generation of Nuclear power goes to near zero. Seriously they shut most of it down and only a few are restarted after research for safety, upgrades years later.
Still there is enough various plants around but it can't be denied that Japan is not exactly the most electricity availability stable due to environment. But that's what you get for building a fab on a "volcanic" island in the middle of ocean.

The 6 exabytes is 40% of WD's share if I read right so +9 exabytes is Toshiba who did not say a thing. They share the fab among other business relations.
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post #64 of 70 (permalink) Old 07-08-2019, 07:23 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by PostalTwinkie View Post
They don't have to, but they do, just like they did back with the Utah DC expansion and HDD at the time. Why? Because the NSA likes to keep everything they do secret.
Sure, but the easiest way to do that is just to have a shell company buy a bunch of drives. They don't need to fake an industrial accident just to free up room. Pure conspiracy drivel you've got going.
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post #65 of 70 (permalink) Old 07-08-2019, 08:58 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Mand12 View Post
Sure, but the easiest way to do that is just to have a shell company buy a bunch of drives. They don't need to fake an industrial accident just to free up room. Pure conspiracy drivel you've got going.
Sure but the NSA didn't since if they got caught it would look worse so they went ahead on their own. It was even reported in the mass media (which is really script media for the zombies) but look that up now on Google and it's not there. Maybe in your world it's still a conspiracy theory that Google is censoring and that search results are being tampered with?!? Huh...

I've seen your posts and generally they are anti-consumer and tend to defend corporations, mass media (fake news), scientism that shill for corporations and governments, governments and the spy agencies. You are either very naive (you have eyes and ears but cannot see or hear), you are a corporate shill or work for the alphabet soups.

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post #66 of 70 (permalink) Old 07-08-2019, 02:08 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by JackCY View Post
As I said before search for power plant and they show up on the map, look around in satellite view.

I don't see any power plants directly on site. Those are some chemical processing "plants" areas, all those tanks and pipes. "Japan Air Liquide Yokkaichi Gas Center"
Probably some giant slug crawled into their electrical box to get grilled. One did that with their trains, causing unheard of delays and so on.

Japan does have environmental issues and Yokkaichi power outage is nothing new. There is another report on 18th from a different company, though it's really hard to search this stuff in English.

Tsuruga nuclear plant, out of service, built on a fault line and old as hell now.
Mihama, out of service.
Ōi operational.
Takahama operational.

And after 2011 their generation of Nuclear power goes to near zero. Seriously they shut most of it down and only a few are restarted after research for safety, upgrades years later.
Still there is enough various plants around but it can't be denied that Japan is not exactly the most electricity availability stable due to environment. But that's what you get for building a fab on a "volcanic" island in the middle of ocean.

The 6 exabytes is 40% of WD's share if I read right so +9 exabytes is Toshiba who did not say a thing. They share the fab among other business relations.

Now I see the Power Plant on the bay which has a hospital close by, if there is any sort of glitch , the hospital is going to be top prioity. I was looking at the Toshiba Site for a Power Plant, Postal said there were 2 on site.

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post #67 of 70 (permalink) Old 07-08-2019, 02:32 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Gunderman456 View Post
Sure but the NSA didn't since if they got caught it would look worse so they went ahead on their own. It was even reported in the mass media (which is really script media for the zombies) but look that up now on Google and it's not there. Maybe in your world it's still a conspiracy theory that Google is censoring and that search results are being tampered with?!? Huh...

I've seen your posts and generally they are anti-consumer and tend to defend corporations, mass media (fake news), scientism that shill for corporations and governments, governments and the spy agencies. You are either very naive (you have eyes and ears but cannot see or hear), you are a corporate shill or work for the alphabet soups.
You I like. Seems we share many of the same views.

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post #68 of 70 (permalink) Old 07-08-2019, 03:16 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by SystemTech View Post
Ok im sorry for the ignorance, but :

1. how can a 13 minute outage effect a month and a half's supply? Why is production partially halted? Sure they would lose the wafers in production at that point in time, but would you not just reset everything, start a new wafer and all is back to normal?

2. If the fab's are that sensitive to a power outage, would you not have redundant power supplies. Generators/Batteries etc?

Just find this really odd.
1. Wafer can take several months to make.

2. I don't know. It's also possible the power outage was longer than their generator capacity.

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post #69 of 70 (permalink) Old 07-08-2019, 04:20 PM
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I'll admit I can't even begin to claim that I understand the inner workings of industrial silicone fabrication plant, but I don't understand how such a short loss of power is going to cost these companies so much. If a small loss of power is going to so detrimental to their production schedule, why not invest in backup power solutions, or better yet, generate your own power. I just don't understand. I have seen this type of fake production issues in the past and in that case it was just an excuse to increase consumer costs to increase profit margins.

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post #70 of 70 (permalink) Old 07-08-2019, 06:12 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Diffident View Post
Now I see the Power Plant on the bay which has a hospital close by, if there is any sort of glitch , the hospital is going to be top prioity. I was looking at the Toshiba Site for a Power Plant, Postal said there were 2 on site.
Those are chemical "plants" etc. mostly some storage tanks and a ton of piping.

There are some coal plants at the shore to east and you can find Japanese tourism photos of those, apparently the place had horrible pollution = people dying, from all the plants and industries in 60s etc. Dunno if those coal plants still run but I guess so because lights are shining everywhere on photos at dark. There are those white weird looking chimneys.

Best bet is follow electrical lines and such but while there are some objects from power plants the rest seems to go underground fast. Plus Google's resolution in 3D is horrible.

There are solar plants scattered all around.

Quote: Originally Posted by Shmerrick View Post
I'll admit I can't even begin to claim that I understand the inner workings of industrial silicone fabrication plant, but I don't understand how such a short loss of power is going to cost these companies so much. If a small loss of power is going to so detrimental to their production schedule, why not invest in backup power solutions, or better yet, generate your own power. I just don't understand. I have seen this type of fake production issues in the past and in that case it was just an excuse to increase consumer costs to increase profit margins.
It's possible but then one definitely would expect them to have backup generation for critical systems to shutdown production gracefully until full power comes back on. As in, OMG those wafers are etching, so that machine has critical power to finish it's job and park wafers in a safe position washed off. There has been criticism of their production reliability already when one starts digging through news from that prefecture and about the plant.
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