[Tom's Hardware] Intel Announces Optane DIMMs for Workstations, SSD 665P With 96-Layer QLC, Roadmap - Page 2 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community
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[Tom's Hardware] Intel Announces Optane DIMMs for Workstations, SSD 665P With 96-Layer QLC, Roadmap

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post #11 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 11:22 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by WannaBeOCer View Post
I'm referring to desktop clients. According to the article Intel and Microsoft are collaborating to optimize Windows for Optane.
Desktop clients = work stations and normal desktops.

And 99.99% of them will NOT use Optane.

OEM Pre-builts?

Maybe. 1 or 2. Just to showcase, that it can be used.

This thing will remain solely in the niche Enterprise... where it barely belongs.

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post #12 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 11:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by ku4eto View Post
Desktop clients = work stations and normal desktops.

And 99.99% of them will NOT use Optane.

OEM Pre-builts?

Maybe. 1 or 2. Just to showcase, that it can be used.

This thing will remain solely in the niche Enterprise... where it barely belongs.
It definitely belongs in enterprise due to lightning-fast database-server restarts. For workstations it eliminates disk swapping which will significantly improve performance for many programs.

For normal desktop users the persistent storage will allow for lightning-fast startup of the OS once Microsoft is finished with their tweaks. We'll see what else they have planned. If you do not see the importance of persistent memory I don't know what to tell you. Storage and memory is still a major bottleneck for every datacenter and workstation and this addresses it.

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post #13 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 03:22 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by WannaBeOCer View Post
It definitely belongs in enterprise due to lightning-fast database-server restarts. For workstations it eliminates disk swapping which will significantly improve performance for many programs.

For normal desktop users the persistent storage will allow for lightning-fast startup of the OS once Microsoft is finished with their tweaks. We'll see what else they have planned. If you do not see the importance of persistent memory I don't know what to tell you. Storage and memory is still a major bottleneck for every datacenter and workstation and this addresses it.
Persistent memory is important 99.9% of the time in Enterprise only. 1 invalid point.

Storage and memory are bottleneck only for data centers that have applications, that are based around them. Aside from IO and RAM, there is CPU threads, networking and CPU speed. 2nd invalid point.

For normal users, you cant see difference in OS loading between M.2 NVME and SATA SSD. 3rd invalid point.

Stop trying to shill the Intel useless crap to everyone.

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post #14 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 03:29 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by WannaBeOCer View Post
It definitely belongs in enterprise due to lightning-fast database-server restarts. For workstations it eliminates disk swapping which will significantly improve performance for many programs.

For normal desktop users the persistent storage will allow for lightning-fast startup of the OS once Microsoft is finished with their tweaks. We'll see what else they have planned. If you do not see the importance of persistent memory I don't know what to tell you. Storage and memory is still a major bottleneck for every datacenter and workstation and this addresses it.

From what I can tell, especially with the advent of pcie 4.0 NVMe drives, there is zero purpose for optane at the consumer level.


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post #15 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 04:20 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by ku4eto View Post
Persistent memory is important 99.9% of the time in Enterprise only. 1 invalid point.
So you like waiting for your data to load off your hard drive?

Quote: Originally Posted by ku4eto View Post
Storage and memory are bottleneck only for data centers that have applications, that are based around them. Aside from IO and RAM, there is CPU threads, networking and CPU speed. 2nd invalid point.
They bottleneck whatever you are doing almost every time you use them. If you are loading a file from your SSD you need to wait for it to load before you can use it, unless you are using some predictive RAM caching that tries to preload files that the OS thinks you will use later. Want to view an image? Wait for it to load into RAM first.

Quote: Originally Posted by ku4eto View Post
For normal users, you cant see differences in OS loading between M.2 NVME and SATA SSD. 3rd invalid point.
I don't think you know what this point was addressing. It is not just a faster hard drive. A change to the OS so it doesn't need to load a bunch of files off of storage before running doesn't seem useful? Persistent memory takes functionality like Windows' "Hibernate" to a entirely different place. Just turn it off and on, with no boot at all. Your applications are still open and you didn't need to load gigabytes off the disk first, or save them when turning it off. Whatever Microsoft is working on now probably won't get to the full potential of persistent memory but you are writing it off as the same as moving from a SATA to NVMe SSD?!?

Quote: Originally Posted by ku4eto View Post
Stop trying to shill the Intel useless crap to everyone.
Wow, you really think that having your data already in RAM is useless? Do you know what Von Neumann architecture is referring to?

You also seem to think throughput is the only important metric for storage but at this point random access is much more important for normal use. A NAND based SSD is never going to go above ~60 MB/s for true random access (this is why NVMe is not much better than SATA in many real world use cases...). Manufacturers are figuring out cheaper and slower NAND, not faster. 3D XPoint is persistent solid state memory that can actually do decent random access too. "Useless crap"

Quote: Originally Posted by DNMock View Post
From what I can tell, especially with the advent of pcie 4.0 NVMe drives, there is zero purpose for optane at the consumer level.
Why? Slower is better? NAND sucks in general, 3D Xpoint is way better. I don't see how PCIe 4.0 is going to help NAND get better random access, which is where it is slow now. Moving from 2GB/s to 4GB/s sequencial is not going to change the feel of a computer for anyone, it won't change load times for games or programs and it won't it help it boot faster. What is actually improved at the consumer level by moving to PCIe 4.0 NAND based SSDs? Moving from 60 MB/s to 500 MB/s for random 4K would have a much more noticeable impact.

Last edited by Asmodian; 09-27-2019 at 04:26 PM.
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post #16 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 07:08 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by DNMock View Post
From what I can tell, especially with the advent of pcie 4.0 NVMe drives, there is zero purpose for optane at the consumer level.
You got to be kidding, Optane is the only reasonable upgrade from SSD. There is no other drive that can hit such 4K read/write speed (save for SS Z-drive which is slower and still incredibly expensive), which is what matters to consumer


Just rolled out a cheaper, faster 910p SSD with more capacity option for us and we will be glad. 256GB will be sweet spot as a price / capacity Boot drive.

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post #17 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-27-2019, 08:54 PM
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I don't see this ever coming to consumer desktop, there's not enough workloads that would require it that would not also benefit even more from the workstation platform.

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post #18 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-28-2019, 10:30 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by WannaBeOCer View Post
It definitely belongs in enterprise due to lightning-fast database-server restarts. For workstations it eliminates disk swapping which will significantly improve performance for many programs.



For normal desktop users the persistent storage will allow for lightning-fast startup of the OS once Microsoft is finished with their tweaks. We'll see what else they have planned. If you do not see the importance of persistent memory I don't know what to tell you. Storage and memory is still a major bottleneck for every datacenter and workstation and this addresses it.


How long does it take even an m.2 Sata to get from power button push to desktop? Like, maybe double-digit seconds? How much more actual point is there to accelerate that on the margins for massive price premiums?


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post #19 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-29-2019, 01:34 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
They bottleneck whatever you are doing almost every time you use them. If you are loading a file from your SSD you need to wait for it to load before you can use it, unless you are using some predictive RAM caching that tries to preload files that the OS thinks you will use later. Want to view an image? Wait for it to load into RAM first.
actually theres also RAMDisks, some users had already done successful attempts in installing their games in RAMDisks.

on that note, the biggest benefit of using RAMDisks is the superior 4K-IO performance of RAM, not to mention drastically reduce wear on SSDs.

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post #20 of 39 (permalink) Old 09-29-2019, 05:30 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by WannaBeOCer View Post
It definitely belongs in enterprise due to lightning-fast database-server restarts. For workstations it eliminates disk swapping which will significantly improve performance for many programs.

For normal desktop users the persistent storage will allow for lightning-fast startup of the OS once Microsoft is finished with their tweaks. We'll see what else they have planned. If you do not see the importance of persistent memory I don't know what to tell you. Storage and memory is still a major bottleneck for every datacenter and workstation and this addresses it.
The database servers (or for that matter, pretty much any server) do not need to restart quickly, as every enterprise business in the history of forever has one of the following;

- Change control / scheduled downtime
- Redundant servers
- Resource pooling

Additionally, most databases are not hosted on Windows, and lol, you think servers don't do a full RAM training every single boot up and take 10-20 minutes to POST. 3TB of Optane will make that take a literal hour. Welcome to actual enterprise.

--------------

I don't know if you realize this or not, but most PCs with NVMe already start in under 5 seconds... Also;

- AMD provides 256GB/s or more of PCI-e bandwidth and a theoretical cap of about 200GB/s of RAM bandwidth.
- Six channels of DDR4-2666 provides about 128GB/s.
- AMD provides support for 4TB of RAM per CPU.
- Optane DIMMs support 3TB per CPU.

Optane DIMMs are DoA. If you need that much data that quick, then Optane DIMMS will not help you.

Quote: Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post
actually theres also RAMDisks, some users had already done successful attempts in installing their games in RAMDisks.

on that note, the biggest benefit of using RAMDisks is the superior 4K-IO performance of RAM, not to mention drastically reduce wear on SSDs.
RAM Disks are software cache, and not worth the pain.

Quote: Originally Posted by guttheslayer View Post
You got to be kidding, Optane is the only reasonable upgrade from SSD. There is no other drive that can hit such 4K read/write speed (save for SS Z-drive which is slower and still incredibly expensive), which is what matters to consumer


Just rolled out a cheaper, faster 910p SSD with more capacity option for us and we will be glad. 256GB will be sweet spot as a price / capacity Boot drive.
Yup. Optane good, Optane DIMMs useless.

Quote: Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
So you like waiting for your data to load off your hard drive?



They bottleneck whatever you are doing almost every time you use them. If you are loading a file from your SSD you need to wait for it to load before you can use it, unless you are using some predictive RAM caching that tries to preload files that the OS thinks you will use later. Want to view an image? Wait for it to load into RAM first.



I don't think you know what this point was addressing. It is not just a faster hard drive. A change to the OS so it doesn't need to load a bunch of files off of storage before running doesn't seem useful? Persistent memory takes functionality like Windows' "Hibernate" to a entirely different place. Just turn it off and on, with no boot at all. Your applications are still open and you didn't need to load gigabytes off the disk first, or save them when turning it off. Whatever Microsoft is working on now probably won't get to the full potential of persistent memory but you are writing it off as the same as moving from a SATA to NVMe SSD?!?



Wow, you really think that having your data already in RAM is useless? Do you know what Von Neumann architecture is referring to?

You also seem to think throughput is the only important metric for storage but at this point random access is much more important for normal use. A NAND based SSD is never going to go above ~60 MB/s for true random access (this is why NVMe is not much better than SATA in many real world use cases...). Manufacturers are figuring out cheaper and slower NAND, not faster. 3D XPoint is persistent solid state memory that can actually do decent random access too. "Useless crap"



Why? Slower is better? NAND sucks in general, 3D Xpoint is way better. I don't see how PCIe 4.0 is going to help NAND get better random access, which is where it is slow now. Moving from 2GB/s to 4GB/s sequencial is not going to change the feel of a computer for anyone, it won't change load times for games or programs and it won't it help it boot faster. What is actually improved at the consumer level by moving to PCIe 4.0 NAND based SSDs? Moving from 60 MB/s to 500 MB/s for random 4K would have a much more noticeable impact.
Optane DIMMS are not RAM, and this change will not affect that. They are SSDs on a RAM bus running at 2666. 21.4GB/s per SSD is great compared to one M.2 or U.2 SSD at 4GB/s, but reality is that, as you note, Randoms are what matter. Optane DIMMS will not significantly out perform traditional NVMe Optane in Randoms, and they will NOT provide RAM-like response times.

Given Intel's history of not tagging data and their recent security issues with Cache and RAM... I'd keep it in storage thanks.

4GB/s to 8GB/s. PCI-e 3.0 is 1GB/s/lane, 4.0 is 2GB/s/lane.

Agreed, which is why I run Optane as my OS drive. But... this thread is specifically about the DIMM version, and I get the speeds you are speaking of out of a normal NVMe Optane drive. Why would I waste RAM slots?

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