[Tom's Hardware] Intel Announces Optane DIMMs for Workstations, SSD 665P With 96-Layer QLC, Roadmap - Page 3 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community

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[Tom's Hardware] Intel Announces Optane DIMMs for Workstations, SSD 665P With 96-Layer QLC, Roadmap

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post #21 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-29-2019, 04:30 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by WannaBeOCer View Post
It definitely belongs in enterprise due to lightning-fast database-server restarts. For workstations it eliminates disk swapping which will significantly improve performance for many programs.

For normal desktop users the persistent storage will allow for lightning-fast startup of the OS once Microsoft is finished with their tweaks. We'll see what else they have planned. If you do not see the importance of persistent memory I don't know what to tell you. Storage and memory is still a major bottleneck for every datacenter and workstation and this addresses it.
The database servers (or for that matter, pretty much any server) do not need to restart quickly, as every enterprise business in the history of forever has one of the following;

- Change control / scheduled downtime
- Redundant servers
- Resource pooling

Additionally, most databases are not hosted on Windows, and lol, you think servers don't do a full RAM training every single boot up and take 10-20 minutes to POST. 3TB of Optane will make that take a literal hour. Welcome to actual enterprise.

--------------

I don't know if you realize this or not, but most PCs with NVMe already start in under 5 seconds... Also;

- AMD provides 256GB/s or more of PCI-e bandwidth and a theoretical cap of about 200GB/s of RAM bandwidth.
- Six channels of DDR4-2666 provides about 128GB/s.
- AMD provides support for 4TB of RAM per CPU.
- Optane DIMMs support 3TB per CPU.

Optane DIMMs are DoA. If you need that much data that quick, then Optane DIMMS will not help you.

Quote: Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post
actually theres also RAMDisks, some users had already done successful attempts in installing their games in RAMDisks.

on that note, the biggest benefit of using RAMDisks is the superior 4K-IO performance of RAM, not to mention drastically reduce wear on SSDs.
RAM Disks are software cache, and not worth the pain.

Quote: Originally Posted by guttheslayer View Post
You got to be kidding, Optane is the only reasonable upgrade from SSD. There is no other drive that can hit such 4K read/write speed (save for SS Z-drive which is slower and still incredibly expensive), which is what matters to consumer


Just rolled out a cheaper, faster 910p SSD with more capacity option for us and we will be glad. 256GB will be sweet spot as a price / capacity Boot drive.
Yup. Optane good, Optane DIMMs useless.

Quote: Originally Posted by Asmodian View Post
So you like waiting for your data to load off your hard drive?



They bottleneck whatever you are doing almost every time you use them. If you are loading a file from your SSD you need to wait for it to load before you can use it, unless you are using some predictive RAM caching that tries to preload files that the OS thinks you will use later. Want to view an image? Wait for it to load into RAM first.



I don't think you know what this point was addressing. It is not just a faster hard drive. A change to the OS so it doesn't need to load a bunch of files off of storage before running doesn't seem useful? Persistent memory takes functionality like Windows' "Hibernate" to a entirely different place. Just turn it off and on, with no boot at all. Your applications are still open and you didn't need to load gigabytes off the disk first, or save them when turning it off. Whatever Microsoft is working on now probably won't get to the full potential of persistent memory but you are writing it off as the same as moving from a SATA to NVMe SSD?!?



Wow, you really think that having your data already in RAM is useless? Do you know what Von Neumann architecture is referring to?

You also seem to think throughput is the only important metric for storage but at this point random access is much more important for normal use. A NAND based SSD is never going to go above ~60 MB/s for true random access (this is why NVMe is not much better than SATA in many real world use cases...). Manufacturers are figuring out cheaper and slower NAND, not faster. 3D XPoint is persistent solid state memory that can actually do decent random access too. "Useless crap"



Why? Slower is better? NAND sucks in general, 3D Xpoint is way better. I don't see how PCIe 4.0 is going to help NAND get better random access, which is where it is slow now. Moving from 2GB/s to 4GB/s sequencial is not going to change the feel of a computer for anyone, it won't change load times for games or programs and it won't it help it boot faster. What is actually improved at the consumer level by moving to PCIe 4.0 NAND based SSDs? Moving from 60 MB/s to 500 MB/s for random 4K would have a much more noticeable impact.
Optane DIMMS are not RAM, and this change will not affect that. They are SSDs on a RAM bus running at 2666. 21.4GB/s per SSD is great compared to one M.2 or U.2 SSD at 4GB/s, but reality is that, as you note, Randoms are what matter. Optane DIMMS will not significantly out perform traditional NVMe Optane in Randoms, and they will NOT provide RAM-like response times.

Given Intel's history of not tagging data and their recent security issues with Cache and RAM... I'd keep it in storage thanks.

4GB/s to 8GB/s. PCI-e 3.0 is 1GB/s/lane, 4.0 is 2GB/s/lane.

Agreed, which is why I run Optane as my OS drive. But... this thread is specifically about the DIMM version, and I get the speeds you are speaking of out of a normal NVMe Optane drive. Why would I waste RAM slots?

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post #22 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-29-2019, 07:17 PM
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Alder Stream is the gen 2 Optane SSD from Intel roadmap,


But I hope they are able to work in both Intel / AMD platform instead of the former only.

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post #23 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-29-2019, 07:45 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post
Optane DIMMS are not RAM, and this change will not affect that. They are SSDs on a RAM bus running at 2666. 21.4GB/s per SSD is great compared to one M.2 or U.2 SSD at 4GB/s, but reality is that, as you note, Randoms are what matter. Optane DIMMS will not significantly out perform traditional NVMe Optane in Randoms, and they will NOT provide RAM-like response times.
The latency looks better to me. What am I missing here? Intel atom systems run ram at that latency. Not ideal, but they act like they have ram. Would games need assets loaded to ram, ever, if they were installed on optane dimms?

And this article I got the pic from is suprisingly downbeat on optane as well. https://www.extremetech.com/computin...e-improvements

The scale on that chart is logarithmic.
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post #24 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-29-2019, 10:14 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post
RAM Disks are software cache, and not worth the pain.
yes, the one i quoted was talking about caching data from SSD to RAM.

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post #25 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-29-2019, 11:33 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by epic1337 View Post
actually theres also RAMDisks, some users had already done successful attempts in installing their games in RAMDisks.

on that note, the biggest benefit of using RAMDisks is the superior 4K-IO performance of RAM, not to mention drastically reduce wear on SSDs.
Who is still worried about wearing out their SSD? Anyone still worried can use an 830 and enjoy those 8PB that can be written to the drive.

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post #26 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-30-2019, 12:55 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Liranan View Post
Who is still worried about wearing out their SSD? Anyone still worried can use an 830 and enjoy those 8PB that can be written to the drive.
or they can use the better SSDs with well over 10PB of write endurance.



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post #27 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-30-2019, 09:39 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by guttheslayer View Post
You got to be kidding, Optane is the only reasonable upgrade from SSD. There is no other drive that can hit such 4K read/write speed (save for SS Z-drive which is slower and still incredibly expensive), which is what matters to consumer


Just rolled out a cheaper, faster 910p SSD with more capacity option for us and we will be glad. 256GB will be sweet spot as a price / capacity Boot drive.
Eh, maybe if you are running a HEDT set-up with 8 dimm slots so you can still get a healthy chunk of ram still, then it might be worth it. That or if 32GB dimms of ram become common with DDR5 you could get away with using 2 sticks of that and 2 sticks of optane, but I wouldn't wanna be limited to 32 GB of ram on a new build in 2020/2021 or whatever.


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post #28 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-30-2019, 12:05 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post
The latency looks better to me. What am I missing here? Intel atom systems run ram at that latency. Not ideal, but they act like they have ram. Would games need assets loaded to ram, ever, if they were installed on optane dimms?

And this article I got the pic from is suprisingly downbeat on optane as well. https://www.extremetech.com/computin...e-improvements

The scale on that chart is logarithmic.
As commented, in reaaaaaaaaaally small font on the left side, Optane DIMMS do not compete with RAM latency, though I am glad to have testing backup my comment. Anywhere from 2.5-5x the latency of same speed RAM (180-340ns vs 70ns).

The thing is... AMD has the required bandwidth to load an entire 2TB database into RAM in about 15-20 seconds (Provided you dump enough SSDs into the system to provide that bandwidth obviously), and from there use the significantly better latency for months until you need to perform updates, at which point lol, you get to wait for a 4TB server to reboot. Go get yourself some dinner, you'll be back in time to open the boot menu.

Intel has about the same performance capacity too, it's just that they need more lanes or a faster QPI/UPI to pull it off and you need to pay a stupid amount of money to support higher RAM counts.

But that's just it, if you are hurting for IOPS that bad, you are also probably busy nuking your CPUs. If you want more IOPS to the kind of extremes Optane DIMMS want to replace, the best way to handle it is resource pooling. More servers, with semi-unified storage. vSANs, load balancers, etc. Something that provides redundancy. You can not hot swap a DIMM, but in the more advanced stuff you can hotswap NVMe drives just fine. When you are playing at this level, you run under the expectation that parts will fail and that they will not force you to kill the whole thing while you fix it.

Optane DIMMs are... cool I guess. I'd like to run two sticks of RAM, two sticks of Optane DIMM, and be able to move back down to X570 instead of X399. But they are not game changers.

Optane, or more specifically XPoint, however, is incredible. NAND SSDs look fast, but that's mostly the large DDR cache and NVMe queue buffers talking. Optane's durability and random speed is insane, and only the high cost makes it not compete.

Quote: Originally Posted by Liranan View Post
Who is still worried about wearing out their SSD? Anyone still worried can use an 830 and enjoy those 8PB that can be written to the drive.
People who can't afford SLC NAND and buy QLC or soon to be PLC.

The Intel 660p is pretty much the king budget stick at the moment...
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But those people don't have enough RAM for a ram disk probably.

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post #29 of 36 (permalink) Old 09-30-2019, 02:25 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by KyadCK View Post
As commented, in reaaaaaaaaaally small font on the left side, Optane DIMMS do not compete with RAM latency, though I am glad to have testing backup my comment. Anywhere from 2.5-5x the latency of same speed RAM (180-340ns vs 70ns).

The thing is... AMD has the required bandwidth to load an entire 2TB database into RAM in about 15-20 seconds (Provided you dump enough SSDs into the system to provide that bandwidth obviously), and from there use the significantly better latency for months until you need to perform updates, at which point lol, you get to wait for a 4TB server to reboot. Go get yourself some dinner, you'll be back in time to open the boot menu.

Intel has about the same performance capacity too, it's just that they need more lanes or a faster QPI/UPI to pull it off and you need to pay a stupid amount of money to support higher RAM counts.

But that's just it, if you are hurting for IOPS that bad, you are also probably busy nuking your CPUs. If you want more IOPS to the kind of extremes Optane DIMMS want to replace, the best way to handle it is resource pooling. More servers, with semi-unified storage. vSANs, load balancers, etc. Something that provides redundancy. You can not hot swap a DIMM, but in the more advanced stuff you can hotswap NVMe drives just fine. When you are playing at this level, you run under the expectation that parts will fail and that they will not force you to kill the whole thing while you fix it.

Optane DIMMs are... cool I guess. I'd like to run two sticks of RAM, two sticks of Optane DIMM, and be able to move back down to X570 instead of X399. But they are not game changers.

Optane, or more specifically XPoint, however, is incredible. NAND SSDs look fast, but that's mostly the large DDR cache and NVMe queue buffers talking. Optane's durability and random speed is insane, and only the high cost makes it not compete.
We may be arguing different points. I often don't communicate where I'm coming from the best.
I'm disagreeing with your statement of optane DIMMs not being capable of significantly beating optane SSDs on IOPS. And I'm also anticipating optane DIMMS to be coming to Cooper Lake/ Ice Lake workstations like the slide in the op states.

If your cpu could keep up, the optane DIMMs have about 30x lower read latency than the optane PCIE SSDs.
On my pc, my 900p can be bottlenecked by my cpu when testing it with crystaldiskmark if my cpu isn't going full speed, so no way could it keep up with 30x the IOPS in a traditional file system.
If Microsoft can correctly integrate optane's different modes into Windows, the cpu won't have to do the work of dealing with a filesystem for what is stored on said optane DIMMS if you choose the appropriate use mode.
At least that's what this article states under the description of "App Direct Mode – Memory Access": https://blocksandfiles.com/2019/07/0...-access-modes/

Since a cpu's memory controller can keep up with RAM, it should also be able to keep up with optane DIMMs. All sorts of speed with less cpu effort.
The ramdisks I've used certainly didn't have 30x the IOPS of my 900p. Maybe my cpu and ram are slow, or maybe the work to maintain the archaic filesystem is the bottleneck.

Hopefully I'm not just getting carried away with this, but it seems like a viable upgrade from my first gen 14nm stuff.

Edit: I would also totally try to overclock them.

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post #30 of 36 (permalink) Old 10-01-2019, 06:35 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by rluker5 View Post
We may be arguing different points. I often don't communicate where I'm coming from the best.
I'm disagreeing with your statement of optane DIMMs not being capable of significantly beating optane SSDs on IOPS. And I'm also anticipating optane DIMMS to be coming to Cooper Lake/ Ice Lake workstations like the slide in the op states.

If your cpu could keep up, the optane DIMMs have about 30x lower read latency than the optane PCIE SSDs.
On my pc, my 900p can be bottlenecked by my cpu when testing it with crystaldiskmark if my cpu isn't going full speed, so no way could it keep up with 30x the IOPS in a traditional file system.
If Microsoft can correctly integrate optane's different modes into Windows, the cpu won't have to do the work of dealing with a filesystem for what is stored on said optane DIMMS if you choose the appropriate use mode.
At least that's what this article states under the description of "App Direct Mode – Memory Access": https://blocksandfiles.com/2019/07/0...-access-modes/

Since a cpu's memory controller can keep up with RAM, it should also be able to keep up with optane DIMMs. All sorts of speed with less cpu effort.
The ramdisks I've used certainly didn't have 30x the IOPS of my 900p. Maybe my cpu and ram are slow, or maybe the work to maintain the archaic filesystem is the bottleneck.

Hopefully I'm not just getting carried away with this, but it seems like a viable upgrade from my first gen 14nm stuff.

Edit: I would also totally try to overclock them.
Keep in mind that you are comparing six channels of Optane DIMM, which impacts your ability to read from normal RAM the same way as the last 512MB on a GTX 970, against literally thirty two U.2 drives at full speed. Except Randoms do not need a full x4, they could be split out to x1, and you'd be comparing yourself to 128 NVMe Optane drives (if there were a chassis that could do it). One for one, Optane DIMMS will outperform Optane NVMe.

The reason your RAMdisk is slow is because you are doing more CPU-level data transfers than even normal storage, on top of file system issues, yes. It is user-level software cache.

Intel wants to be 1.2x as cost efficient as DRAM, per your first article. If you want 2x128GB Optane DIMMS, you'll paying about 85% of the cost of 256GB or RAM, or about $1,000ish. If consumers can buy them at that cost, if consumers can buy them at all. If you want to be like CallsignVega and drop infinite money, please benchmark it for us.

If you do, please share the results. 2666 is real slow for any RAM these days.

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