[Guru3d] AMD wants to increase performance per cycle by more than 7 percent annually - Page 4 - Overclock.net - An Overclocking Community
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[Guru3d] AMD wants to increase performance per cycle by more than 7 percent annually

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post #31 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-04-2020, 03:38 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by UltraMega View Post
What are you talking about?

This website is full of aspurgers people, literally turning this into pages about the exact meaning of mores law.

New flash people, more transistors make CPUs faster. They are related.
I very much agree because yes; it is related but I think what was being tried to make you understand was that uncle Moore never "explicitly" claimed the IPC (instructions per clock) performance improvement in his pseudo-law. That's it.

This is purely my ass-talk based speculation but I think what AMD wants to do now as the title suggests; what Intel should have been the one to do so because they have always had more money, is the "Optimization"-at-hardware-level part. My understanding is that, they(both AMD and Intel) did what was easy until a couple of years ago; when it was easy to simply add more transistors, but now it is becoming hard, now they will have to think of anything that could squeeze more performance out of the ISA (or even re-implement it from scratch if possible while maintaining backward compatibility with current gen compilers while also improving efficiency, difficult stuff I ask for I acknowledge, but....this is forum talk :-D). I think now is the time to go back to *"x86-is-a-mediocre-architecture" and try to find if there still is any juice left in that 20-40 years old architecture (I am talking about circuit optimizations and stuff). But my speculation is not that baseless because look at that A13 Bionic or whatever Apple calls it. Man can you and I really comprehend the amount of performance packed inside that little piece of peanut that consumes no more that ~3 watts on full load and still beats(I think the non-exaggerative replacement word would be "challenges" instead of "beats" tbh, nevermind) the latest Intel's generation that consumes 40+watts in single thread ? This is way more that significant man.

If Apple can do the same calculations (Geekbench) at way way faster speed (in terms of performance per power unit), it is obvious that "The Apple's methods" are literally more powerful than this piece of crap x86-64, right ? I (again)think AMD is secretly realizing it somewhere along the way.

*PS: I took that statement(not a verbatim) from one of the many statements of the PlayStation 4 cracker/hacker in a video you will find on youtube".

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post #32 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-04-2020, 04:02 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by sumitlian View Post
I very much agree because yes; it is related but I think what was being tried to make you understand was that uncle Moore never "explicitly" claimed the IPC (instructions per clock) performance improvement in his pseudo-law. That's it.

This is purely my ass-talk based speculation but I think what AMD wants to do now as the title suggests; what Intel should have been the one to do so because they have always had more money, is the "Optimization"-at-hardware-level part. My understanding is that, they(both AMD and Intel) did what was easy until a couple of years ago; when it was easy to simply add more transistors, but now it is becoming hard, now they will have to think of anything that could squeeze more performance out of the ISA (or at least re-implement it from scratch while maintaining backward compatibility with current gen compilers while also improving efficiency). I think now is the time to go back to *"x86-is-a-mediocre-architecture" and try to find if there still is any juice left in that 20-40 years old architecture (I am talking about circuit optimizations and stuff). But my speculation is not that baseless because look at that A13 Bionic or whatever Apple calls it. Man can you and I really comprehend the amount of performance packed inside that little piece of peanut that consumes no more that ~3 watts on full load and still beats(I think the non-exaggerative replacement word would be "challenges" instead of "beats" tbh, nevermind) the latest Intel's generation that consumes 40+watts in single thread ? This is way more that significant man.

If Apple can do the same calculations (Geekbench) at way way faster speed (in terms of performance per power unit), it is obvious that "The Apple's methods" are literally more powerful than this piece of crap x86-64, right ? I (again)think AMD is secretly realizing it somewhere along the way.

*PS: I took that statement(not a verbatim) from one of the many statements of the PlayStation 4 cracker/hacker in a video you will find on youtube".

Apple chips may be ARM-based but they definitely has their own secret sauce. The problem is how far does that architecture scale? We don’t really know because we only get what Apple gives us.

I can’t tell you at what clockspeed the A13’s power efficiency drops off a cliff, but I can tell you for any x86 CPU. Qualcomm has tried and failed to infiltrate windows laptops for a few years now.

I’ll tell you that intel lost the ARM battle, and AMD never even released K12. But, In order for ARM to seriously compete in the PC space the Single-Core performance would need to be powerful enough to emulate x86 well enough to not be perceivable

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post #33 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-04-2020, 04:13 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by UltraMega View Post
What are you talking about?

This website is full of aspurgers people, literally turning this into pages about the exact meaning of mores law.

New flash people, more transistors make CPUs faster. They are related.
I am telling you that you are doing the very same thing you criticize.
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post #34 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-04-2020, 05:18 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Buris View Post
Apple chips may be ARM-based but they definitely has their own secret sauce. The problem is how far does that architecture scale? We don’t really know because we only get what Apple gives us.

I can’t tell you at what clockspeed the A13’s power efficiency drops off a cliff, but I can tell you for any x86 CPU. Qualcomm has tried and failed to infiltrate windows laptops for a few years now.

I’ll tell you that intel lost the ARM battle, and AMD never even released K12. But, In order for ARM to seriously compete in the PC space the Single-Core performance would need to be powerful enough to emulate x86 well enough to not be perceivable
I get what you are saying, specially the scaling part which I didn't think of. But I wasn't talking about emulation at all.
That Geekbench ran natively on that Apple chip and the results in front of Intel made an impression that literally made a history. Of course for people to get the advantage of A13's performance with that groundbraking efficiency, we need an OS which Apple does provide !? but yeah I don't know lol where this talk is going to end...but all I wanted to say, that Geekbench scores make it clear as water there definitely are better ways to achieve the same performance at under 3.0 GHz what Intel and AMD are doing with 4+ GHz.

Also I believe that somewhere in the way we forgot to go back and check that these high GHz scores in terms of engineering efficiency is not even remotely as impressive as Intel and AMD make it seem to be. Do a test whenever you have time, go to the lowest possible CPU core frequency (I think it is 800 MHz), note the single core score of anything like Winrar etc, now compare that to your overclocked single core score. You may realize how pathetically the performance scaling goes down as the core frequency reaches to what we love to call our max stable OC.

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post #35 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-04-2020, 09:21 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by sumitlian View Post
I get what you are saying, specially the scaling part which I didn't think of. But I wasn't talking about emulation at all.
That Geekbench ran natively on that Apple chip and the results in front of Intel made an impression that literally made a history. Of course for people to get the advantage of A13's performance with that groundbraking efficiency, we need an OS which Apple does provide !? but yeah I don't know lol where this talk is going to end...but all I wanted to say, that Geekbench scores make it clear as water there definitely are better ways to achieve the same performance at under 3.0 GHz what Intel and AMD are doing with 4+ GHz.

Also I believe that somewhere in the way we forgot to go back and check that these high GHz scores in terms of engineering efficiency is not even remotely as impressive as Intel and AMD make it seem to be. Do a test whenever you have time, go to the lowest possible CPU core frequency (I think it is 800 MHz), note the single core score of anything like Winrar etc, now compare that to your overclocked single core score. You may realize how pathetically the performance scaling goes down as the core frequency reaches to what we love to call our max stable OC.
In regards to clockspeed scaling, both Intel and AMD use seperate metrics for different parts of the processor, Integer and Floating point calculations are done on seperate parts of the CPU, and one might scale with clockspeed while the other doesn't, AVX clockspeed on intel, for example is completely seperate from the clockspeeds you can achieve with an OC, at least to my knowledge

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post #36 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-05-2020, 04:02 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by Buris View Post
AVX clockspeed on intel, for example is completely seperate from the clockspeeds you can achieve with an OC, at least to my knowledge
They're not separate, but you can manually offset them.

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post #37 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-05-2020, 05:26 PM
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Quote: Originally Posted by UltraMega View Post
People on this site can be so freaking annoying. If someone says the sky is blue, you're likely to get two pages of replies talking about how the sky is technically teal or turquoise or some other crap. It gets old.
its more of an overall forums/boards/social media internet thing, but definitely true.

it's the classic effect provided by being behind a keyboard.

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post #38 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-06-2020, 02:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, I know Moore didn't specify IPC but the point of what he did say was that CPU power would roughly double every 18 months. You know it, I know it, he knew it. The exact words he used don't change the meaning in this case.

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post #39 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-06-2020, 04:52 AM
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Quote: Originally Posted by UltraMega View Post
Yes, I know Moore didn't specify IPC but the point of what he did say was that CPU power would roughly double every 18 months. You know it, I know it, he knew it. The exact words he used don't change the meaning in this case.
He didn't specify IPC because he wasn't talking about IPC in the first place and also because even he knew performance didn't scale linearly with number of transistors. What is it that you're trying to argue?

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post #40 of 64 (permalink) Old 01-06-2020, 04:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote: Originally Posted by huzzug View Post
He didn't specify IPC because he wasn't talking about IPC in the first place and also because even he knew performance didn't scale linearly with number of transistors. What is it that you're trying to argue?
My actual point was just that 7%+ year over year IPC improvements doesn't seem unreasonable considering we have seen close to 50% improvements gen to gen at many times in the past, and some of those were basically just IPC improvements.

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